Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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draven
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Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by draven »

This may need to be merged with Steven's thread from a couple of years ago regarding his research on front and rear 88 hub replacements.

I purchased that nice 88GT from Paul Vargyas a few years ago in the hopes of turning it into a part time autox and hpde vehicle, and then promptly disappeared... I have since dropped and replaced two Gen III ford explorer 4.0 V6's (same truck, painful story) and dropped, resealed, and restored a gen I mazda 6....

Well before I even got a chance to take the 88GT out to an autox or even a instructor led track day at AMS or even road Atlanta to put the slush box and boat anchor out of their 160K mile misery, I've got a groan, and play, in one of the front bearings.

So before I tear into the car and follow more or less in Steven Snyders footsteps (giving credit where credit is due) I've looked everywhere for any type of substitution/fix/etc for the 88 bearings. The 88's in junkyards around Atlanta have been picked clean due to Georgia's budding movie industry and at least one film where a request was put out across several junkyards for 88 fieros.

Anyway, on to the point. I've looked and looked for a front bearing, or even upright, replacement for the 88's and have found some candidates that I dont' think were available when Steven looked through this a few years ago.

1.) Coleman Racing Camaro/Corvette hub to spindle conversions
$500/side
Image

I got the blueprints from their techline and it looked like a real winner with only minor modifications to the spindle flange and 1-1.5mm bored out of the 88 upright pilot bore for a slip fit around the back of the spindle. BUT 88 upright facing to hub face distance would increase by approximately 30-35mm if I remember correctly... maybe, but we already have a hard enough time finding high offset wheels for the front of the 88's already.

2.) Put the 20-25k jbody bearing in front 88 upright. This would require about 3mm to be bored out of the upright pilot bore with only about 5mm there to play with... additional offset is manageable but the pilot bore fitment might take a bit too much out of the hub.

On to the more spendy'er solutions

3.) Lateral Dynamics C5/C6 modular spindle
https://www.lateral-dynamics.com/
Looks very promising and the owner, Mark, is very responsive and isn't an "all things corvette" guy and wants his modular spindles used everywhere, of course.... I directed him to Blooze's blueprints off of his 355 build thread and it looks highly possible, still a bit worried about the offset as the uprights are very meaty and the corvette bearings are bit deeper than the fiero bearings, but aren't they all. They could even be setup to replace the rear uprights as well. They come with Howe balljoints and utilize the C5/C6 hub/bearing....BUUTTT price.... 1800$ for a setup he has in stock... 4-5K$ for a custom setup...gotta pay to play I guess... He's getting a quote given the 88 blueprints short cut a ton of his work. we'll see.....

4.) Wilwood C10 Pro-Spindles
Image

Looks very promising, price is "decent" at $499/spindle at certain vendors, not sure about the 9deg kingpin angle, axle centerline to lower ball joint mount looks to provide a 1-2" drop with regards to the 88 fiero upright. Steering tierod attachment would have to be altered or a new one created to address any bumpsteer issues... need to research more about instance center first. Called 3 times and no one can get back to me on the exact bearing used, but it comes with 5x120 and 5x5 bolt patterns, uses Chevy C10 ball joints. Total height is 9", ~2.25" taller than the stock 88 upright.

5.) Palatov Motorsports
PM Modular Uprights – GTX
Image
Image

Very interesting, pricey at $600 /upright, dimensions are 'very' similar to stock 88GT front upright, only inch taller, and thinner with regards to offset. Can be ordered to run solid joints or balljoints. KPI is 4.8 deg, Balljoints used are moog K9802 , bearing is SKF 513089, bolt pattern 5x114.3, and steering arm needs Moog ES2059R tie rod, they have an additional wilwood brake package as well starting at 600$/upright. Custom steering arms are $150 per side but still need to learn more about instance center and if the one shipped with the upright would need to be altered or not.

Unknown...
6.) Given that Rodney Dickman has pulled his rebuildable bearings from his site and has no plans to offer them again (primarily due to some jack wads over at OE trashing his product, given that he never intended them for race use), and his current stock of taper bearings are hit or miss with regards to autox/tracking... I contacted Chris at WCF and he mentioned he had all but put into production a spindle setup that would maintain the stock offset (didn't as to not step on Rodney's original bearing solution) and given Rodney's lack of a heavy duty solution he's considering going forward with these. He asked me to call him back every week to keep bugging him about it as well as anyone else who's interested.

Thoughts, ideas, comments, peer review...... questions, quips, queries, quandries...

Edit: price and spelling corrections
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Wow. You have definately put a lot of thought and research into this. I would def love it if there was an option for something heavier duty but sales are gonna be so limited. I guess thats why finding something already off the shelf is the best.

Has anyone milled down the fiero hub for the jbody parts and actually used them with success in a racing application? I dont know of any I don't think but I don't follow the racing circles that closely.

So if these are solutions for the front what about the rears? Are they not stressed as hard as the fronts and dont need replacing as often?
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by draven »

Shaun,

The yahoo fiero race group from the 90s quickly found the limitations of the stock rear bearings and figured out that the "OEM" jbody 20-25K bearings held up very very well. At least for the 88 rear upright all that was needed was to bore it out 1-2mm for a slip fit, slot the bolt holes on the bearing flange and add a 1/4" spacer between the back of the bearing and the shoulder of the cv outer drive spline. Steven implemented this and is running it... I had my uprights milled and spacers created and was then pulled away...

The 20-25k should be doable for the front but you'd have to take some off the fiero upgright 'and' the jbody pilot bearing.... not big on having to modify the bearing everytime a new one goes on.... it's one thing to just slot the flange holes like the rear, another to have the bearing outer race turned down every time..
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by draven »

Some other options I've found are a machined spindle what would fit deep inside the pilot bore and also recess the shoulder of the spindle inside the pilot to maintain offset just as a few aftermarket truck/offroad vendors have done.

Image

Image

Image

Image


I'll try and cad up a prototype of this for the 88 upright to get a machining quote but my cad skills are that of a highly trained primate...

Edit: this is probably a no-go for the axle spindle and maintain stock offset or less... the 70mm pilot bore is just too small to recess even the smallest willwood hubs, and many others, or even some billet ones I found for the AE86... There goes my "Initial D" dreams... :-D
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I just cut apart the last ball joint I need to get some CMM data from a spare '88 knuckle. I can design an aluminum knuckle that will accept the C6 Corvette SKF bearings, stock '88 Fiero lower ball joint and probably use the '84-'87 pinch bolt rear ball joint as an upper. It uses a 3 bolt flange like the '88 uppers, but is *MUCH* more widely available. I have not yet measured the flanges to see how compatible they are. I'd set up the brake bosses to use the C4 Corvette 12" rotor conversion.

I'm torn between a "simple" laser or water-jet cut block of steel with bolt on ball joint mounts and steering arm vs. a single part whittled from a chunk of aluminum with integral lower ball joint mount and probably a bolt-on upper. The stock upper ball joint boss precludes milling a one piece knuckle from 3" thick stock. I'll bolt on the steering arm no matter what. The stock '88 knuckles don't have good ackerman geometry, but I'm not sure which way it needs to go to be fixed. Different brake packaging choices may make that workable.
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by draven »

Will,

Let me know if you're willing to see this through and make them.. I'll help where I can, monetarily and testing... don't have any spare knuckles at the moment but I do have the suspension out and can mic some measurements for you.

check your pm's too..
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draven
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by draven »

Promising update, one of the tech's at Coleman racing contacted me from my first inquiry about adapting a corvette/camaro spindle conversion setup to the 88 fiero.

Apparently, they already have a set of plans drawn up for a front 88 spindle conversion setup that will maintain the factory 88 offset. They emailed me the drawings to confirm on a few key measurements. Was it anyone from here? Steven?

Just a couple of tech notes, the bearings spec'd are SKF BR13 and BR12.

Not sure if anyone is interested, or if anyone reads this forum any more :D but if anyone is interested let me know so the per unit cost can be kept down.

Edit: Corrected bearing manufacturer
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Can you share the measurements from Coleman?
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

draven wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:02 pm Promising update, one of the tech's at Coleman racing contacted me from my first inquiry about adapting a corvette/camaro spindle conversion setup to the 88 fiero.

Apparently, they already have a set of plans drawn up for a front 88 spindle conversion setup that will maintain the factory 88 offset. They emailed me the drawings to confirm on a few key measurements. Was it anyone from here? Steven?

Just a couple of tech notes, the bearings spec'd are SKF BR13 and BR12.

Not sure if anyone is interested, or if anyone reads this forum any more :D but if anyone is interested let me know so the per unit cost can be kept down.

Edit: Corrected bearing manufacturer
I'm down for a set. The more viable options the better. Are you handling a group buy? Have you started a topic about the Coleman units on Pfiffle?
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:36 pm Can you share the measurements from Coleman?
Ditto. Can you share the drawings here?
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

draven wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:18 pm Will,

Let me know if you're willing to see this through and make them.. I'll help where I can, monetarily and testing... don't have any spare knuckles at the moment but I do have the suspension out and can mic some measurements for you.

check your pm's too..
I should have enough hardware to get all the measurements I'll need, but I appreciate the offer
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by draven »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:08 pm
draven wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:02 pm Promising update, one of the tech's at Coleman racing contacted me from my first inquiry about adapting a corvette/camaro spindle conversion setup to the 88 fiero.

Apparently, they already have a set of plans drawn up for a front 88 spindle conversion setup that will maintain the factory 88 offset. They emailed me the drawings to confirm on a few key measurements. Was it anyone from here? Steven?

Just a couple of tech notes, the bearings spec'd are SKF BR13 and BR12.

Not sure if anyone is interested, or if anyone reads this forum any more :D but if anyone is interested let me know so the per unit cost can be kept down.

Edit: Corrected bearing manufacturer
I'm down for a set. The more viable options the better. Are you handling a group buy? Have you started a topic about the Coleman units on Pfiffle?
I'll be ordering up a prototype set from Coleman on Monday... not sure how long it'll be after that until they create a set and send it to me for final fitting... the price should be near the price for the Camaro/Corvette spindle adapters.

Yes I started a thread on pennock's Got a few interested but not as much enthusiasm as I hoped for.


From what it looks like on the drawings the stock 57.1mm hub bore is just too small for any respectible size bearing as the hub bore center is 2.75" so stock 88 rotors will not fit...
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Have a link to the Old Europe thread?

What's the price? I'm not sure which parts you mean by "Camaro/Corvette spindle adapters"
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The brake pilot on the stock hub is 2.273 (57.75mm). The brake pilot on a C5/C6 hub bearing is 2.779. At 2.745-2.750, those will need an annoyingly small concentricity spacer to properly locate Corvette rotors.

Can Coleman set up the brake pilot to accept C4 Corvette rotors? That would "legitimize" a common upgrade for '88's.
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by draven »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:03 pm The brake pilot on the stock hub is 2.273 (57.75mm). The brake pilot on a C5/C6 hub bearing is 2.779. At 2.745-2.750, those will need an annoyingly small concentricity spacer to properly locate Corvette rotors.

Can Coleman set up the brake pilot to accept C4 Corvette rotors? That would "legitimize" a common upgrade for '88's.
Completely see your point and can't believe that I missed that.... I just emailed the engineer at Coleman.. I just ordered the first set yesterday...2 weeks to get official plans drawn up and 1-2 week(s) for production....
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Also, the Corvette wheel pilot is 2.765... probably want to have a stepped brake pilot to wheel pilot shoulder like the stock Corvette hubs do.

( viewtopic.php?p=152223#p152223 )

I may have to steal a set of these hubs to run on my '87 GT ;)

Come to think of it... Coleman could use the '84-'87 Fiero spindle and bearings, thereby opening up the entire Fiero market for their hubs.

Of course the shallow offset would pull wheels inboard significantly on early cars, BUT that just means more capability to support wide track control arms :-D
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by draven »

88 fiero Coleman hubs are in... just testing fitment and pics to come but some initial findings...

The spindles are machined very well and fitment is superb... the hubs are massive and because Gary at Coleman had to push the hub face inboard so much to maintain the stock 88 offset the hub center shaft/pilot cylinder (?) sticks out through the center of my wheels, motegi mr116's 17"x7", and past the center caps about 1/4-1/3 of an inch... no biggie given the durability obtained by this solution in my opinion..

Lastly, the hub still has an interference issue with the wheel center cap lip keeping it from fully seating.. even though the bore on the hub is ~69mm and the wheel bore is 72mm.. the center cap lip reduces the internal wheel diameter down to about 67-68mm... I will have to clearance the lip with a ever so slightly ground down 2 7/8" hole saw as 72mm hole saws are hard to find or ridiculous in price.

Will, FYI, my corvette rotors mated perfectly to the hub with without the concentric ring.

Also there is no chance of these working with stock wheels without some serious trimming of the center bore.
Last edited by draven on Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

This is great news
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Re: Stronger front 88 bearing/hub options

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Yeah, Awesome!

Pics?
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