High Feature V6 Swap

[draven]

Ok.. so all the suspension, bearing, and and steering projects I've been posting about lately are merely preparatory work for the engine swap which as been partially started.

I'll use this thread as a overview thread and link to individual threads for specific topics during the swap.

The 'biggest' problems with a high feature V6 swap have been solved, at least in theory.

The ECU programming and harness are being done by a shop in Michigan
The transmission is from a saab 9-3 2.8T F40 so it bolts right up...
Clutch, Solid billet flywheel, and pressure plate are coming from Clutchnet..

Current issues to start working out
1. My not so big problem that is mostly figured out given all the research of the F40 is what axles to go with....
The plan is to go with either a Pontiac G6 halfshaft/carrier with G6 passenger side CV axle and shortened G6 Driver side axle by Mosler, etc.. much like J. Upson on OE. Obviously with Fiero end shafts...

I do have the Saab Halfshaft/carrier that I already have and could look into using saab axles but no solid research has been put into using them and reman axles come with a hefty saab tax and but the halfshaft has a female shaft and the G6 halfshaft/carrier is only 130$ from GM

2. Bigger problem... The Saab F40 has no VSS output so I'm going to have to adapt an abs tone ring to either the axle or the halfshaft. Or the more painful $$$ solution would be to pull the Saab F40 bellhousing and plop it onto a 60deg F40.

Anybody here have any experience adapting a tone ring to axles like the fiero's, can it be done with the dust protector on the end of the axle shaft?

Thoughts?

[The Dark Side of Will]

I have a Saab F40. I hadn't noticed that it doesn't have a VSS. Is the regular F40 VSS on the bellhousing side of the case or the other side?

Do you have links to the flywheel you're looking at? Is it a direct replacement for the Saab? I'm getting started on designing a flywheel for 7.25" clutches to fit this transmission.

What's the PN for the G6 intermediate shaft and carrier?

The ECM has been solved for a long time. Trifecta has had a swap tune out for years.

I see a high feature V6 swap as a stepping stone toward the 420 HP TT version used in the ATS-V

[draven]

I'll get you the G6 Intermediate shaft / carrier part # tonight...

See PM about my ECU..

I'm going with a solid version of the saab flywheel that Clutchnet has created and sold for a few high hp 9-3 2.8T's, one of their saab pressure plates, and their sprung 6 puck clutch. Spec has one as well but I"m staying away from them unless I have to...

[Shaun41178(2)]

I am assuming the ecu doesnt need to see a vss? If not you want the vss for Speedo only then.

Gps based Speedo a possibility?

[draven]

I am assuming the ecu doesnt need to see a vss? If not you want the vss for Speedo only then.

Gps based Speedo a possibility?

From what I understand at the moment the ECU needs the VSS signal, more to come soon on that from the shop that's programming the E92. Ligenfelter makes an OBD2/CANBUS to analog guage converter if I choose to keep the stock gauges.... several options at the moment...

[The Dark Side of Will]

If there's no VSS on the transmission, that means the ECU gets its speed signal over the CANBus from the ABS/Traction control module, which reads the wheel speed sensors.

[draven]

If there's no VSS on the transmission, that means the ECU gets its speed signal over the CANBus from the ABS/Traction control module, which reads the wheel speed sensors.

Right... BWM Guru on OE hit this problem in his 2.8T swap... last I read he was contemplating a GPS VSS

I think I can adapt a reluctor wheel to the cv axle where the axle seal shield sits and mount a sensor to the back of the rear knuckle... Thought I got lucky with the 2025K rear bearings I'm using and could get an ABS version of them but the Jbody's had their reluctor wheels on their rear non drive bearings...

ZZPerformance has a reluctor wheel on the jackshaft of their F40 conversion that I might look into as well

[draven]

I have a Saab F40. I hadn't noticed that it doesn't have a VSS. Is the regular F40 VSS on the bellhousing side of the case or the other side?

The VSS is on the non-bellhousing side of the case, just on top of the diff, slightly towards the rear....

Here's the 60deg F40, look on the far left of the pics..there's the VSS.. no boss or anything for the saab F40.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I forgot that the VSS in that thing reads the ring gear teeth directly. FieroGuru had to face that boss down a smidge to maintain the right gap from the sensor to the gear teeth when he swapped to the 3.09 FD.

[draven]

If there's no VSS on the transmission, that means the ECU gets its speed signal over the CANBus from the ABS/Traction control module, which reads the wheel speed sensors.

I'm using the GM E92 so it will want a signal from a VSS, not the saab bosch ecu which for the saab, like you said, needs it from the ABS computer...

The more I research this, a jackshaft reluctor wheel might be my easiest approach if I stay with the saab case. I'll see what zzperf can offer..

Oh yeah.. the part no.

The part # on the G6 half shaft and carrier is:
22668353

although the pic in the online gm parts catalog only show the shaft, it 'does' include the carrier.

[draven]

Ok.. after a little more research, let me retract my statement about the G6 intermediate shaft/carrier working with a GM HF/V6... I have yet to get my hands on a G6 carrier bearing bracket and after eyeballing what I could find online as far as pics.. I'm not 100% sure the G6 bracket will bolt up to the LFX block... The saab carrier bearing bracket fits fine, but then again it was made for this block but the G6, obviously, never mated the f40 to the LLT, LLY, or LFX..

The female end of the saab shaft has 27 splines and therefore 'should' allow for a driver side manual G6 axle to mount to the passenger side, although it is 2" longer than the passenger G6 but that difference may be solely due to the passenger G6 axle having a female end to mate with the stock G6 half shaft...

Anyone have some exact measurements on the G6 axles at the differential and half shaft cv ends?

[draven]

Update on the VSS signal adaptation..

I've found an abs tone ring that should be able to heat fit onto the recess where the hub seal cover sits on the cv axle but it may be too tight against the knuckle to fit a sensor in there... Dorman 917-544

Also the '04 Saturn ION Redline intermediate half shaft has a VSS reluctor on the axle, fits into the F35 so should fit the F40, but that's a relatively rare find at the bone yard and a discontinued part

[The Dark Side of Will]

www.car-parts.com

[draven]

www.car-parts.com

Oh, that's the first place I go... Only found two saturn redlines with the reluctor on the axle, one in Mich, one in Canada. Going to test fit the dorman abs tone ring onto the cv stub and then into a knuckle to see if I have the room for a VSS sensor there first.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Do the automatic cars (e.g. 6T70E) use the same intermediate shaft, or do they have the same smaller axle spines as the 282, F23 and 4T65E-HD

[draven]

AFAIK, the redline package uses the F35 or MU3 option whose axle's are splined to the same as that of the F40.

But good news! If you alter your Car-Part.com search to just the Redline axles, LH or RH, instead of the halfshat, many many more 2004 redlines appear. The halfshaft of the F35 'looks' to be the same as the one with the F40 and F35 saab 9-3's and subsequently many F35 equipped GM setups. It would make sense that they would.

Also, here is the Saab carrier bearing bracket that bolts to the HFV6 block:
https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/152891 ... gKCdvD_BwE

I can't at the moment absolutely verify hands on that the bracket bolts up as my block is at a friends warehouse as I am at 'zero' room in my garage at the moment while finishing up the front suspension / steering rack modifications.

[ericjon262]

How about wheel bearings with vss built in for ABS? Could they be adapted?

[draven]

How about wheel bearings with vss built in for ABS? Could they be adapted?

I looked into that and none of the GM cars that share the same rear hub/bearing unit have the build in reluctor wheel and sensor. They all used the abs tone ring on the outboard cv axle stub. I thought the 20-25K Jbody unit bearing I had adapted for the rear might have an integrated abs version but only the rear jbody bearings had the integrated circuit no go there...

The 1996 corsica cv axle out board axle stub is identical to the fiero's and had optional abs so might look at mounting the the stub onto the G6 DS axle.


Haven't had a chance to call some of the yards on car-part for the 04 redline halfshaf, bracket, and sensor yet

[The Dark Side of Will]

AFAIK, the redline package uses the F35 or MU3 option whose axle's are splined to the same as that of the F40.

But good news! If you alter your Car-Part.com search to just the Redline axles, LH or RH, instead of the halfshat, many many more 2004 redlines appear. The halfshaft of the F35 'looks' to be the same as the one with the F40 and F35 saab 9-3's and subsequently many F35 equipped GM setups. It would make sense that they would.

Also, here is the Saab carrier bearing bracket that bolts to the HFV6 block:
https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/152891 ... gKCdvD_BwE

I can't at the moment absolutely verify hands on that the bracket bolts up as my block is at a friends warehouse as I am at 'zero' room in my garage at the moment while finishing up the front suspension / steering rack modifications.

Good to hear about the availability. I'd also forgotten that the F35 uses the same diff splines as the F40. That's good to know.

[draven]

Ok, for documentation purposes the preliminary data on the '04 Saturn ION Redline VSS is 30 pulses per revolution of the intermediate shaft. 5V reference signal. I'm pretty sure the PPM interpreted by the E92 ECU can be adjusted to the proper setting through HP Tuners. More to come...