Dual Disk Clutches

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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The Dark Side of Will
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Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Here's the thread about Tilton clutches: http://www.realfierotech.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3376
Here's the thread about Quartermaster clutches: http://www.realfierotech.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21513

In terms of designing the parts required and adapting to the various transmissions, a whole lot of this info is going to be common to both. They use the same bolt circle to mount to the flywheel, for example. The throw out loads and travel will be similar, as will the set up heights, so the adaptations to the throw out mechanism to get it to work with double the stock throw out load will apply to both.

Here's a quick model of a matching flywheel with the Northstar crank pattern, sized for the 282.

Image

I will need to update the counterbores for actual measurements, since they're currently ISO standard--which means socket caps, I think.

I'm going to grab one of these: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atp-z253

Image

The OD of the puck is 8.400. I'll hollow out the flexplate to 8.400 and weld it to the perimeter of the puck. That cut should be somewhere in the diametral range covered by the speed holes, which will simplify the welding.
Once figured out, this basic technique would work for any application using the 282.

For the F23, the deeper bellhousing means that, with a little profiling of the back surface of the puck, the same puck could bolt down on top of the flexplate with room to spare. However, the flexplate would be specific to the ENGINE and not all have the same profile. The first few new engine cases will be blazing trails figuring out. The flexplate linked from Summit above would work with any internally balanced V6/60, Q4/2.4 or Iron Duck apps with the F23.

I have the design for a mechanical throw out bearing carrier for a 282 in my head, I just need to go back over the numbers and build the model.

However, for HTOB 282, F23 and F40, I may have to get a little creative in developing HTOB adapters in order either to use a Tilton or QM HTOB assembly complete or to adapt a round faced mechanical throw out bearing to the production HTOBs for those transmissions.

I'll wait until somebody asks about the Muncie to design the mechanical TOB holder for it. Its bellhousing is only a tiny bit deeper than the 282's, so the same flywheel will work for both.

Since the throw out load is higher and the throw out distance is shorter, a smaller diameter MC for the HTOBs will probably be required.
Wilwood has a couple of models with 1/2" bores:
https://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders ... =260-15088

ETA:
The original Fiero MC has an 11/16" bore. A 1/2" bore unit has 53% of the piston area, which means that if the Fiero MC is basically right with the stock style clutch, then a clutch with double the throw out load and half the throw out travel will keep approximately the same pedal load with the 1/2" MC.

This even looks like the Fiero type 1 MC

Image

Or maybe this one in extremis:
https://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders ... 20Cylinder
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by draven »

Don't forget powertraintech.com.. Their owners came from either QM or CM, can't remember which exactly...

Lots of clutch pack options, buttons, disc materials, etc.... most if not all listed on their website to roll your own setup...
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Interesting site. I didn't know about them, so I'll keep them in mind.
However, they appear not to have the 25mm x 14 spline that the Isuzu, Muncie & Getrag use. I forgot to count/measure the F23 & F40 splines last weekend.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by draven »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 1:40 pm Interesting site. I didn't know about them, so I'll keep them in mind.
However, they appear not to have the 25mm x 14 spline that the Isuzu, Muncie & Getrag use. I forgot to count/measure the F23 & F40 splines last weekend.
Take a look at page 21 of their overall catalog...PTTCatalog.pdf

Lists the fiero specifically....
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Ah, interesting. I was looking at their list of replacement disk packs which does NOT show that spline.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by ericjon262 »

F23 should be the same input spline as a stock Fiero. the first clutch I had for mine was a Fiero Centerforce.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Ahh, sweet. I didn't realize that. Thanks!
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by draven »

Will,

Let me know if this is ok to post in your thread here as I think its relevant to the subject.

I just got off the phone with Mcleod Racing who has their RST and RXT twin disc 'conversion' setup that bolt to many oem flywheels. Either dual organic and dual metallic for 800hp and 1000hp respectively. 6 Floater plate straps for eliminating idle rattle as much as possible. Regarding the 1" x 23 spline F40 setup Mcleod does have a Mopar 9 11/16" dual clutch setup for 11" flywheels, PN 6911-02,~$750, with the proper input shaft with a pp/clutch setup height of 2"-2.1". So all that is needed is a 1" chromoly custom flywheel.

Also, just got off the phone with AascoMotorsports and they can cut a chromoly slip on 142 tooth ring gear flywheel for 750$.

Although a little spendy at $1500 it's right in line if not toward the lower end of quality highly streetable twin disc setups out there.

If anyone knows of a better place to get a flywheel turned (better quality or better price) please let me know..

Edit: Scratch the Mcleod Racing setup still too large so no go on that...

Aasco Motorsports said they could create one from scratch using various off the shelf parts, measurements sent to them and waiting on a response but wary of Frankensteining a setup together with possible custom parts too.. (Fail, went radio silent on me)

Tilton's RS262 twin disc looks to be able to fit but they won't manufacture the discs in 1" x 23 tooth count yet and probably won't expand the line until next year. (Close but no cigar)

RAM Clutch 9.5" setup looks to be the most promising after giving them the dimensions and they already have a 3.6 LFX Camaro twin disc setup with correct FW tooth and disc spline count. Just need to shorten the setup height from 3.85 to 3.2.
(Not gonna happen with their 9.5" setup, Saab F40 input shaft too short)
Last edited by draven on Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

From my Tilton Clutch thread...

Fiero has 7" of clutch pedal travel. Tilton & QM are both in the range of 0.250" throw out distance with 500# throw out load.
The pedal ratio is ~4:1.
The MA of the Getrag slave vs the throw out fingers is 0.96.

7 / 0.250 = 28
500 / 28 = 17.8# pedal load if I can get the hydraulic ratio right. Previously I was thinking of using a brake caliper piston and seal to make a large (2"+) slave cylinder. Since the pedal ratio is ~4:1, achieving 28:1 overall ratio requires a hydraulic ratio of ~7:1.

However, Wilwood makes a 1/2" MC that looks very similar to the Fiero Type I MC. A 1/2" cylinder has 0.196 in^2 piston area.
The stock Getrag slave is 15/16 and thus has 0.690 in^2 piston area. This combo results in a 3.5:1 hyd ratio. That's about half what it needs to be. This would probably be workable, as the result would be a ~35# pedal load. I have not measured either the stock-ish pedal load in my '88 or the SPEC Stage 3 pedal load in The Mule.

With the 1/2" MC, a 7:1 hyd ratio requires a 1.321" (33.5mm) SC. That's big, but much more reasonable than the 2"+ that the stock MC required.

A SUPER quick google turned this up: https://mossmotors.com/clutch-slave-cyl ... 1-1-4-bore
I'm sure there's other stuff out there. Having to make my own 1.3" slave wouldn't be as horrible a PITA as making a 2"+ slave, but still a PITA.

Stroke of luck: Guess what uses a 33mm caliper piston? BMW E30 rear.
If I have to make something, at least I have the dust boot and everything already figured out.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The Wilwood MC only has 1.25" of stroke, while I need 1.75" for the setup I'm looking at. Interesting. I might be back to the 2"+ slave cylinder, if it means I only have to make one hydraulic unit.

Stock: 11/16" MC to 15/16" slave: 1.86:1 hydraulic ratio
4:1 pedal * 1.86:1 * 0.96:1 ~ 7.15 overall ratio. With a 500# throw out load, this is about a 70# clutch pedal.

I had discounted extending the external throw out arm because I don't have room to do that under the Northstar water manifold. I'd need to QUADRUPLE the length of it to get to the desired 28:1 overall ratio... not going to work.

However, I the combination of modifying the arm, changing the position of the slave cylinder and increasing the diameter of the slave may work out. for example, maybe with a modified arm and modified bracket, the MG slave shown above could be a bolt-in off-the-shelf part.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The bare Tilton mechanical TOB is PN 62-002-5. Summit carries it.
The journal is presses onto--for example on a BMW or Mustang mechanical TOB assembly--is 1.5752-1.5758 diameter x 0.300 tall.

Tilton rep says they don't sell dual organic disk packs because the disks tend to come in a little thick. That messes with the stack height of the clutch and has given some of their customers release problems from the disks being to thick.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Here's my flywheel in progress:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Welded:

Image

Image

"The perfect weld is always a millisecond from disaster"... Note the bulging on the front surface from the welds on the back surface.

The flywheel ended up right at 11#, which is heavier than I'd hoped, but I deliberately left a bunch of extra steel in it to soak up heat from slipping it in traffic. The most important 3#, the band around the perimeter, is GONE, so that's a big deal and should make this unit spin up quicker than an 8# aluminum unit.

The stock clutch assembly consists of a 14# flywheel, which is already pretty light, a 14# pressure plate an a 3ish # disk. That's 31#. With an 8# aluminum flywheel, that's still a 25# assembly, but with potential reliability problems from the aluminum flywheel.

I'm not exactly sure what the TIlton's final assembly weight is, but even at 10# for pressure plate and disks, the entire assembly would be 21#, which is not only 4# lighter than the stock type assembly with an aluminum flywheel, the smaller diameter gives it SIGNIFICANTLY less moment of inertia, so it will spin up MUCH faster than any stock type clutch/flywheel assembly.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

For use with an LS4 and F40, a Tilton 19040 button flywheel *MIGHT* work by bolting down on top of the stock flex plate.
I'll look at bellhousing dimensions and make an educated guess about it.

See the middle box on the second page here: https://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/upl ... -Gears.pdf

Image
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Nope. Getrag
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

What I said above stands whether *you* have a Getrag or not.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:41 pm Nice. Just gotta figure out the throw out bearing right like the one you got from Steven?

If a throwout bearing existed for that setup I would have bought it.
Here's the Tilton throw out bearing.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/til-62-002-5

I ordered one. I have Tilton's design diameter & tolerance for the shoulder the bearing seats on. I can knock out a design for a holder for it that works with the Getrag throw out fingers fairly quickly. The holder is the only piece that goes inside the bellhousing.

Outside the bellhousing, I need to figure out either a hydraulic or mechanical means of dramatically increasing the throw out force produced by the stock slave cylinder.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

There's an LS4 flexplate in the junk yard 3 miles from where I work. I'll pick it up so that I'll have an actual unit to measure.

FieroGuru's starter mount *MIGHT* clear the Fiero Getrag throw out shaft. I'll have to look at the pics vs. a bellhousing and see.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/ls4-performa ... ssion.html
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Didnt tilton have a yhrowout bearing for thier fiero getrag setup? I mean what was calikid using? I am assuming that part is no longer available?

Guru says it wont clear external getrag slave arm. I havent tried it. I think he says it might work with hyd trowout bearing for the getrag.
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

CK says he used a "round faced" mechanical throw out bearing... I bought the PN he quoted and it wasn't round faced. A flat faced TOB will not work well with the Tilton/QM throw out fingers, which are necessarily very short and thus trace a more pronounced arc than the throw out fingers on a stock type clutch. Also, the Tilton/QM throw out fingers go "below" flat, which is the feature that requires the round faced bearing.

You like to make fun of him for exaggerating his car's capabilities... maybe he was exaggerating how well his clutch worked... or maybe he just didn't know it wasn't well engineered.
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Re: Dual Disk Clutches

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Gotcha.

So you are saying you can get a round faced tob and modify for the getrag fingers?
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