RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

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RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Story to follow... coupla pics for now:

Edit:
In October 2013 (found the first registration) my late Uncle's brother-in-law down north of Richmond had this motorhome. I don't remember how he came to possess it, but he didn't want it. My Uncle did, so BIL gave it to Uncle. The local scrap yard didn't want it because the body is fiberglass and aluminum... not enough pounds for them.

We got it running and I drove it to my Uncle's house in the Shenandoah valley... ~2 hour drive, including over a mountain gap. The engine was running, but not great. It did not have good power, even for weighing >10,000 lbs. But it was free. It also shows 33,000 miles, so it's had an easy life.

At first it looked like things would turn out well, since my dad was ordering parts and my Uncle was doing some work to it. My Uncle had a stroke in 2015 that left him unable to speak, but otherwise with complete faculties. I'm not sure he did anything else to it after that. My dad has a long history of being enthusiastic about a project when he first comes across it, then flagging and losing interest. That was a hard habit for me to un-learn (and maybe I have not yet been successful), but my dad basically never made the 1/2 hour trip from his house to my Uncle's place(*) to do much to it. It's been basically where it's parked right now since 2013.

Recently, the town decided to crack down on "inoperable vehicles", as defined by not having a current VA inspection sticker, across the town. There are many, many people in town affected by this, with the RFTMHQ being a relatively minor offender. Unfortunately, these are not wealthy people, so I don't think anyone affected has the money to take this to court and tell the town to go absolutely fuck themselves in the absolute goatass. After all, what people have on their own property that isn't hurting anyone else should not be anyone else's fucking business.

Anyway, my dad's far too law abiding (My mom was a pastor, so I'm not sure where I got my great big "Fuck the Law!" streak...) but at least he's doing work on getting RFTMHQ running again. Theoretically it was "running" when we parked it, just not well. The distributor was stuck in the block, so we couldn't adjust timing. Since this is a '73, it did not have HEI. HEI came out in '74 on the Olds engines. My dad has an HEI distributor for it, and has been looking up the wiring mods that need to be done to make that work. We had a (another) machinist friend make a custom pry-bar--that ended up working better as a wrench--that pulled the old distributor out. Not realizing that in Olds engines, the distributor does *NOT* go through the intake manifold, we had previously removed the intake manifold. That helped with clearance for removing the dizzy, but was not strictly necessary. The heater core output comes off the right rear corner of the manifold, and nothing comes off the left rear corner of the manifold. I suggested that since this engine would work its ass off pulling the RFTMHQ over Cumberland Gap or similar, we should machine the manifold for four point coolant outlets while it's off. We dropped it off with a different machinist friend to remove the heater outlet fitting and drill/tap the other corner of the manifold this week. If nothing else, we can plug the hole, but at least it will be there so that we can add the other two coolant outlets later.

We should be able to get the manifold back on, pre-oil the engine and install the dizzy next weekend. The carb is a Q-Jet, but has a rebuilder's sticker on it. We're not sure what we're going to do with that yet. The tires are ancient and probably dangerous to drive. It uses dually style wheels w/ 8x6.5 pattern. My dad actually bought a full set of 7 2000's truck dually wheels, which are currently at his house. I think the stock wheels are 16.5's, which by itself is enough reason to get rid of them... Although maybe we could run HumVee tires?

In addition to the wheels and the dizzy, other parts my dad ordered include a rear disk brake kit--for all FOUR rear wheels.
There is a kit to convert the front end to use modern (well... GMT 800?) 3500 Silvahraedo knuckles and hubs.

There's a surprisingly strong and active user community built around these vehicles. That stems from them being assets that enable expanded lifestyles, rather than simple appliances like many cars. It's pretty impressive for a vehicle that will turn 50 next year.

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Basic info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMC_motorhome

This is a 26 foot model.

Community forums: https://www.gmcmotorhome.org/

Oddball chassis pics:

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https://silodrome.com/history-gmc-motorhome/

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Wikipedia:

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(*) My great-grandfather bought the property in the '50's and it's been in the family since then. It was built in 1908, and is a nice large lot in a picturesque small town, a block from the Shenandoah river. Unfortunately, it's also a demanding for my Uncle's widow to look after. :,^(
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by eHoward »

That is cool! I don't think I've seen one of them before. :good:
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Hell ya. Another project
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by ericjon262 »

Shaun41178(2) wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:24 pm Hell ya. Another project
I'm fairly certain this one has been a project for a long time, it's just now surfacing though.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by pmbrunelle »

It's interesting how the more purpose-designed motorhomes, such as this GMC, or the Ultra Van, were less successful than the shed-on-wheels Winnebagos.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Story updated above
eHoward wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:33 pm That is cool! I don't think I've seen one of them before. :good:
Thanks! Yeah, they're rare birds these days, but have a lot of cool features. The powertrain and chassis packaging keeps the floor height to 14" above the road surface, so they're much more compact than comparable MH's built on conventional bus/motorcoach chassis.
Shaun41178(2) wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:24 pm Hell ya. Another project
TOOOOOOOOATES! IKR?
ericjon262 wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:59 am
Shaun41178(2) wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:24 pm Hell ya. Another project
I'm fairly certain this one has been a project for a long time, it's just now surfacing though.
Yeah, as noted, it came into the family in 2013.
pmbrunelle wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:37 pm It's interesting how the more purpose-designed motorhomes, such as this GMC, or the Ultra Van, were less successful than the shed-on-wheels Winnebagos.
Winnebago is committed to their product because that's what they need to do to stay in business. GM has *NEVER* been committed to any individual product or market, as we as Fiero modifiers should already know.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Technical:

The powertrain is an Olds 455 with TH425 transmission. Yes, it's front wheel drive. The front suspension is SLA with torsion bars and disk brakes.

The frame is pretty conventional, as you can see from the photos. There are two 25 gallon fuel tanks (wide + shallow) between the frame rails literally in the floor. I'm not sure where the fresh water and waste water holding tanks are packaged. IIRC, both are ~30 gallons.

The rear suspension is interesting. It uses a tandem bogey pair on each side. There is no axle or any connection between the left and right suspension units. Each hub is mounted on a L-shaped control arm, and an air bag pushes the top ends of the arms apart. This means that each wheel pushes against the other wheel and NOT against the body. This makes the pair act like bogeys.

For those not familiar, a "bogey" is a pair of axles with a single attachment to the vehicle. Bogeys have very good ride quality characteristics. When going over a speed bump, the front wheel/axle rises the full height of the speed bump, while the rear wheel/axle stays on the flat road surface. The result is that the bogey attachment to the vehicle only rises by *HALF* the height of the speed bump. The front wheel/axle comes down off the speed bump and the vehicle only comes down half the height of the speed bump. The same thing happens with the rear wheel/axle. Since the bogey cuts the effective height of all bumps in half, it has very good ride quality. On top of that, these suspensions have very low unsprung weight compared to units in other comparable designs. The result is that the GMC motorhomes have EXTREMELY smooth rides compared to motorhomes built on bus/motorcoach chassis or medium duty truck chassis-cabs.

Because the rear suspension uses air bags, there's a 12V air compressor on board. There's also a feature allowing manual adjustment of each side's air pressure from the driver's seat in order to level the vehicle on an unlevel camp site.

Each wheel has its own shock absorber mounted to the body rather than the other wheel. This is necessary for dynamic behavior.

The problem with the stock rear suspension is the brakes. It has drums at all four points. Brake torque is reacted by the suspension control arms directly. This means that brake torque extends the forward-rear wheels and retracts the rear-rear ones. In extreme cases, the rear-rear wheels can come all the way off the pavement. Regardless, they lock up at the drop of a hat. The rear disk brake kit that my dad bought mounts the caliper brackets on pivoting backing plates. The pivoting backing plates have a "reaction link" that reacts the brake torque into the suspension bracket on the frame. This eliminates dynamic problems with brake application and lets the rear-rear brakes work. If GM had produced a second generation of this chassis, they definitely should have done included this feature... It's that much of a glaring flaw in an otherwise reasonably good chassis.

Weirdly, the aforementioned disk brake kit, and other peoples' improvements thereunto--like the Zettner brake upgrade for Fieros--focus on implementing parking brakes only on the rear-rear wheels. There's no reason that all four calipers can't be parking brake calipers. The P-brake calipers that ship with the kit are '76-'78 Caddy El Dorado calipers, which RockAuto says have 2" diameter pistons. The calipers used on the forward-rear wheels have larger pistons and do not have P-Brake provisions. However, '77-'78 Caddy Fleetwood--and probably Caddy commercial chassis (read: hearse)--rear calipers have 2.5" diameter pistons. They should also bolt in place of the Eldo calipers.

Aside: '78-'80 Caddy Fleetwood rear calipers share the narrower mounting center of the '80-'85 Seville calipers used in the Fiero Zettner brake package. The Seville calipers have 2" pistons, while the Fleetwood calipers have 2.5" pistons, at least per the catalog. This means that the Fleetwood calipers could be used with the Camaro or S10 front calipers to give the Fiero the "square" brake setup that works well on it.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Body & Interior:

The only access is through a man-door on the right side of the vehicle. Ceiling height is 6.5' or so. I can stand upright in boots and have several inches above my head. It's 8 feet wide and 9 feet tall, including the aux air conditioner pod on top.

The vehicles shipped with either 3k or 6k gasoline generators that drew fuel from the vehicle fuel tanks. I'll call it an APU since that's cooler. There are dual batteries, but in typical MH style, one is wired for body loads, while the other starts the engine. The vehicle charging system charges both while the engine is running.

RFTMHQ no longer has its APU. The APU is mounted in a compartment accessible from the exterior just behind the rear suspension on the left(?) side. There is an externally accessible aux compartment behind the rear suspension on each side. The compartments and the suspension share "wheel houses" which represent continuous volumes intruding into the vehicle's interior space. There are external electrical, fresh water and waste water connections for use in camp grounds.

The refrigerator could be either 12V or 12V + gas (yes, a refrigerator can make things cold by burning LPG). This vehicle has a 12V only fridge, but it's degraded to the point that it should be replaced. The range is, I think, electric, to be powered from the generator. The pump that provides domestic water pressure also runs on 12V. Since it was built as a functioning MH, there is a shower/bathroom setup, but it's very compact. There's sleeping space for two in the way-back. The interior appointments are to 1970's standards, but in good condition due to the low mileage.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Will's Dream sheet and other silliness:

=>Duramax.
Duh. There's nothing else to consider for a vehicle with >11,000 lbs GVW. While it's technically possible to run a Duramax with the TH425, the transfer chain in the TH425 can handle a max of 600 ftlbs. I bet the service life with a 600 ftlbs engine is not very long AND one also has to take converter multiplication into account, since the converter is between the engine and transfer chain. A Duramax with a limitation to 500ish ftlbs would not be a lot better than the Olds 455, except in fuel economy. Might as well mod the 455 and save a lot of work.

The Workhorse (brand) LF72 bus used a Duramax + Allison combo with a bespoke "U-Drive" transfer case to drive a FRONT drive axle. That T-case is still available for $3k. With that powertrain and a TBD front diff, RFTMHQ could have full Duramax power and not slow down going over mountains.

Also, an engine driven air compressor is fairly straightforward to add to a Duramax. Of course I'd have one to operate the rear air suspension... and a plasma cutter and central tire inflation system (CTIS).

=>Reconfigure rear suspension for towing.
The rear two-thirds of the vehicle is centered over the rear suspension, while the front third sits on the front suspension. This makes sense for equally loading all tires, but gives the vehicle a very long rear overhang, which makes it not great for towing. Also, GM themselves only rated the vehicle to tow 2,000#, if I've read the correct information. As noted previously, the rear suspension and aux compartments behind it are separated from the interior space by continuous "wheel house" fiberglass boxes intruding into the interior volume. The interior space is packaged around these so that they're not noticeable. With a little fab, the rear suspension and aux compartments could be swapped. This would push the rear suspensions back, shortening the rear overhang and making the vehicle better for towing. The aux compartments would be in front of the rear suspensions. The body panels are modular enough that everything can just be moved. The only fab work would be to the frame to get it to handle the suspension attachments and loads at a different location. This would also increase weight over the front wheels for better traction, although the weight on the front tires would need to be analyzed BEFORE doing the mod. The torsion bar front suspension should be adjustable to a greater load while maintaining stock ride height.
As long as the swap stayed within the original "wheel house" boxes, the modification would not result in any interior changes at all, other than rewiring for the new generator location.
If RFTMHQ could tow an enclosed trailer with a race car, then I could take it to track days more than a couple of hours drive away, like Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta or Mid-Ohio.

=>Real AC Power.
www.realacpower.com *NOT* www.realultimatepower.net
RealACPower builds PTO driven generators/alternators that provide SIGNIFICANT AC power from the PTO ports of medium and heavy duty transmissions... like the Allison A1000. They have a 15kW unit that can provide 240V single phase and only weighs... 330 lbs. That would provide power for the range and/or a medium welder and maybe an anti-aircraft spotlight while the engine runs. I'd get a diesel inverter generator for an APU. I'd figure out how to synch the PTO generator to the inverter generator, and to external power, for that matter, for seamless transition among power sources.

More realistically, https://www.americanpowerinc.com/high-o ... ternators/ makes 12V alternators that can source up to 350A. That kind of current into a 4000W inverter would result in decent 120V power. With the previously mentioned synchronizing capability, power supply could transition seamlessly between the engine, APU and external power.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Do something similar to the urban assault vehicle from the movie Stripes. Guns, flame throwers, etc.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

If I do the suspension relocation I was talking about, it would be able to tow a 105 Howitzer! :-D
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:06 pm If I do the suspension relocation I was talking about, it would be able to tow a 105 Howitzer! :-D

Towing a howitzer is for pussy ass noobs. Build it to tow this and have proper street cred.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by eHoward »

Will is probably trained on the former. ... I hear the Ukrainians may have some seized inoperable russian equipment for sale/trade. Another project wouldn't be out of the question. 8)
Shaun41178(2) wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 4:25 pm
The Dark Side of Will wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:06 pm If I do the suspension relocation I was talking about, it would be able to tow a 105 Howitzer! :-D

Towing a howitzer is for pussy ass noobs. Build it to tow this and have proper street cred.

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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 4:25 pm
The Dark Side of Will wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:06 pm If I do the suspension relocation I was talking about, it would be able to tow a 105 Howitzer! :-D

Towing a howitzer is for pussy ass noobs. Build it to tow this and have proper street cred.

Schwerer_Gustav_(36556135981).png
I'd need to step up to an L5P Duramax swap for that kind of towing. Not sure I'm that much of a baller.
eHoward wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 5:26 pm Will is probably trained on the former. ... I hear the Ukrainians may have some seized inoperable russian equipment for sale/trade. Another project wouldn't be out of the question. 8)
There were a bunch of guys with Slavic accents hanging around Little Creek when I was there for drill in March. If I could bring back a Unimog as a war trophy, I'd help out.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The intake has been modified. The machinist could only fit a 3/8" pipe port on the left rear, but the 3/4" port on the right rear can easily be bushed down to 3/8" pipe. There's a port at the front coolant crossover that's better for heater core circulation anyway, especially with the 4 point coolant flow implemented. We still need to make our own thermostat spacer fitting to work with that, though. I have not been able to find one made for Oldsmobile V8s

Some reading from the community says that the heat riser passage from the heads under the manifold can get SO HOT when the vehicle is driving up a long grade that it can boil fuel out of the carb... That's not cool, so we'll get rid of that. Mondello, an Oldsmobile specialist that carries the block off plates and non-heat riser intake gaskets, is in CA. The shipping timing didn't work out to have the parts for last weekend, but we were able to get the tires & airbags blown up and get the thing ready to roll.

https://mondelloperformance.com/shop/in ... -plates-2/
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

This is how you jack up the back corner of a motorhome.
The board is 14" LVL that we had lying around. We let the airbag down to lower the suspension, inserted the "bogey bar" to keep the suspension near ride height, then lifted the jack.

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The Bogey Bar is a piece of 3/8"x2" steel flat bar that fits through the suspension to prevent the control arms from drooping, thereby making the vehicle easier to lift.

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Time for some Bilsteins on this bad boy!

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We tried 1988 and newer dually pickup wheels, but they didn't fit. The sides are too conical. Ooops. Earlier style wheels were more convex, closer to a spherical section, in the annulus between the flange and the rim.

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Hub pilot didn't make it

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They fit like this, but my dad didn't want to drive it that way.

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I had a friend's chain saw and put in some serious work at 90+ degrees and high humidity clearing brush in the overgrown portions of the lot. The saplings were up to 4-5" in diameter... and surprisingly heavy.

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Mondello, the supposed Oldsmobile engine specialists, sent the wrong end seals, so we were not able to reinstall the intake manifold... AGAIN. I'm on work travel for two weeks starting tomorrow, so we won't have the opportunity to try again until at least 6/18.

Foooooouuuuuuuurrrrrrtunately, my dad has seen the light and due to the work required, the expense required, the size of the project and how serious he is about actually USING it, is very likely just to sell it. My late uncle's brother in law got it for free and gave it to my uncle for free. Even in its current condition we can more than recover the money we've spent on it, especially with it running.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by ericjon262 »

as much as I would love to see this thing put together and restored, I think unloading it is probably a smart move.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

So we did get some work done on this thing in the last half of June, but with going to Reno for Mensa's annual party, catching Covid there and dealing with that for 3 weeks, I haven't gotten anything posted.

As a reminder of how huge this thing is, on the left is a Square Body Suburban, generally considered to be not a small vehicle:

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Eight feet wide and 9 feet tall, 26 feet long (Twelve yards long, two lanes wide; Sixty-five tons of American pride! Canyonero!)

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It's big. Not only is the driver's line of sight above the Suburban roof, the seat is almost above the Suburban roof.

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Here's the access door.

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Couple of quick/dirty inside shots:

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The interior is in fairly good shape, but hasn't seen an update since 1973.

It has "the gap", which is a common issue as the body and interior age. I guess the body sags a little bit, causing the sides to become more curved than they were when built. The door doesn't sag, so the more curved body and the less curved door don't seal securely at the top. There's a rain gutter so it doesn't leak much, but still needs some work. I'll have to research on the appropriate forum to see if there's a "standard" fix.

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The *CORRECT* dually wheels went on just fine:

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Aaaaaaaand... good riddance:

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On the engine side... Didn't these engineers ever hear about nylon manifolds?

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The original intake manifold gasket included a valley tray. However, it does not work with the EGR block-off plates, so we had to switch to fiber type manifold gaskets. This also means that the original splash shield was no longer good enough to keep hot oil off the bottom of the manifold.

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So we picked up a Mondello splash shield along with their EGR block off plates

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Name dropping like a Bausssss

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I set the manifold in place, but didn't get a photo of it. My dad's been cleaning the holes out with chasing taps and replacing the bolts... finally got the manifold fully re-installed last week. I'm on a Navy exercise for the next two weeks, so I won't be able to help... but he *should* be able to get the coolant re-filled and get everything hooked up and get it fired up without my help now.

As a reminder, this is the working space:

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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by ericjon262 »

Looking at the pictures from my phone, the interior looks really clean, if it stays dry it might not be a bad rig.
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Re: RFT Mobile Headquarters: 1973 GMC Motorhome

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The interior is in great shape.
Not that it doesn't want an update... it's just in good condition now.
It does need new fridge, as noted, and could probably use a new range. I haven't looked in the bathroom recently. It's a motorhome bathroom in that it's tiny and stuff is small. IIRC, the toilet is *INSIDE* the shower stall, so you can close the lid and have a seat while you shower.

The only evidence of water entry is right around the access door, due to the body sagging that results in The Gap(TM).
I've seen pictorials of fixing The Gap by using come-alongs to the opposite edge of the floor and gluing/screwing the lateral panel to the door frame.
Being me, I'm wondering about lasering or water jetting a piece of 1/8" aluminum the same shape as the curve of the faux wood panel to make a more permanent fix. Instead of the whole panel, I could make a rim around the doorframe to keep it in the correct shape. Airplanes and boats have that sort of treatment around their doorframes.

I've been pushing to get it running and drive it from my late Uncle's place over to my dad's place. All four rear wheels are on it, but I don't think he's installed the new front wheels yet, nor the spare. My dad wants to have it towed so he doesn't have to make the 1/2 hr drive to work on it. In prepping it to be towed, he found the shifter cable had seized. He ordered a new one, but we'll have to pop it off the transmission shift lever this weekend. I'll use the Jeep to pull it from the yard up onto the driveway, where it'll be easier to get under, jack up, etc.

The intake manifold is fully assembled. To start the engine, we'd need to plug the rear coolant outlets, fill the cooling system, install the HEI distributor, set timing (dunno where the timing pointer is...), reinstall the carb and finish up the 2-3 wiring mods for converting to HEI. That's not trivial, but not a huge list either.
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