Went to the Dyno today

[TurboGT]

I have been trying to get a decent tune going before I went to the dyno but didnt get my knock sensor in time so I had to play it safe. I had a constant AFR of 12:1 to 11.5:1, and am running almost no timing advance in the boost. I have been checking my plugs for detination and with the above setting, it is showing no signs of knocking. I did get the numbers I was expecting and am going to use these for my base numbers.

I only got three pulls and the first one they did in third gear which was realy short pull because I can only rev up to 5K because I get valve float so badly.
214 whp & 236 ft-lb @ 4750 rpm's

The second and third run's were done in fourth and I got much better numbers.
Second run: 224 whp & 255 ft-lb @ 4600 rpm's
Third run: 230.5 whp & 254.8 ft-lb @ 4750 rpm's

**All pulls were done with 5 psi of boost


*click to enlarge

[Shaun41178(2)]

good lordy on only 5 psi too. Thats sweet.

pic doesn't work.

[TurboGT]

Pic is fixed hopefully

[Shaun41178(2)]

pic now works. That def looks like a 250 whp setup at 5200 rpm if your springs would just hold out.

Nice numbers man. Its no 4.9 but its still pretty good.

[TurboGT]

Thanks Shaun :thumbleft:

My goal is with springs, 10 psi with stock internals to hit 300+ whp. Just need some time to get some funds flowing again.

[Aaron]

I'm not sure if you'll hit 250whp even with springs. Remember, the stiffer you go on springs, the more those springs work against your motor, exponentially as RPM rises. I'm not saying you'll lose power, but 250 might be tough to hit as it is, except with new springs. I'm honestly interested to know how much they will hurt you across the board. So once you get the new springs on, go back to the dyno, and make another 5psi run :thumbleft:

Another idea is that they might actually help power, despite causing more resistance. If you are having a problem with compression leaking through the valves, the added spring pressure could help the valves seal beter. This depends on a lot of things though.

Oh, and I have to make at least one DOHC owns OHV statement. An otherwise stock DOHC on 5psi makes 35 more whp, and that is through an automatic tranny with a full 6' exhaust system :la: But seriously, those are really good numbers out of just 5psi, and bound to make your Fiero pull really hard. Maybe not 400hp TPI hard, but it's up there.

[Shaun41178(2)]

I think the LS6 springs are a direct fit and will allow yu to run more cam if you want, or just keep the current setup from floating like what is happening now.

250 whp on 5 psi is obtainable. He is practically there already and is only 20 hp away and has 1300 more rpm that is unuseable right now. It will happen aaron. His graph is still climbing hard at 4700 rpm and the gen 3's don't peak till about 5400. However either way, anythign close to 250 whp on a gen is is good. They dyno around 150 stock at the wheels so a 100 hp gain on 5 psi is damn good.

300 whp on 10 psi should be no problem. Be higher then pbj's numbers on his 4.9 with ported heads and a cam and headwork with the same boost. He only put down 289 whp on 10 psi or so. maybe it was more not sure.

[Aaron]

250 whp on 5 psi is obtainable. He is practically there already and is only 20 hp away and has 1300 more rpm that is unuseable right now. It will happen aaron. His graph is still climbing hard at 4700 rpm and the gen 3's don't peak till about 5400. However either way, anythign close to 250 whp on a gen is is good. They dyno around 150 stock at the wheels so a 100 hp gain on 5 psi is damn good.

300 whp on 10 psi should be no problem. Be higher then pbj's numbers on his 4.9 with ported heads and a cam and headwork with the same boost. He only put down 289 whp on 10 psi or so. maybe it was more not sure.

1300 more RPM? Fuel cut off is at 5800rpm, so he only has 1000 more rpm. Furthermore, max power for the Gen 3 3400 was at 4800, not the 5400 you bullshitted. Thus unless his turbo magically shifted his VE, we can expect his power will still peak at 4800rpm. Therefore springs shouldn't help max power at all, in fact byt he reasons I just said, they might even lower the power output.

100hp gain is good for 5psi, there's no doubt about that. But he also had other mods than just the turbo, as the engine is in a Fiero (Manual tranny, no PS, maybe no A/C, short high flow exhaust, CAI, and tuning).

[Shaun41178(2)]

he is running a megasquirt aaron. his fuel cutoff is whatever he wants it to be. Why do you always think everyone is running stock programming on everything except for whats on your cars?

Once again opening your mouth without knowing what you are talking about. Stock redline is 6k. Its safe to go to 6. Maybe you should browse 60 degree for other Gen 3 turbo swaps and their graphs.

Do you even know how to read a dyno graph? HP and tq cross at 5250 rpm. At 4800 the tq is still above 250. Which means at 4900, the hp is going to keep climbing towards 250 which obviously is a higher peak then the 4800 you claim.

Where is the stock peak tq at on the gen 3 motor aaron? Is it 4500 rpm? Or is it 4750 rpm? I mean thats where the tq is roughly peaking at on turbogt's graph right?

Shut it please.

[befarrer]

THe DOHC 3.4 has twice as many valves and cams, so there should be alot of power lost through the friction of all that moving parts. What is your obsession with internal friction in engines all of a sudden. You are saying hitting 250HP on stiffer valve springs is going to be tough because it robbs soo much power to push the springs .3" that he would be better off to use the stock, weaker springs and it would be easier to get more HP?? With stiffer springs do come more power to push them, but it isnt much. The difference between driving at night compared to a hot afternoon makes more difference. With the stiffer springs, he can build more revs, and usually with revs, comes more power. Untill the engine cant breath anymore, but that is where the turbo helps out.

[Aaron]

he is running a megasquirt aaron. his fuel cutoff is whatever he wants it to be. Why do you always think everyone is running stock programming on everything except for whats on your cars?

Once again opening your mouth without knowing what you are talking about. Stock redline is 6k. Its safe to go to 6. Maybe you should browse 60 degree for other Gen 3 turbo swaps and their graphs.

I wasn't aware he was running a Megasquirt. And if there is a limiter at 5800, there's a reason for it. The advantages of running past that (None), carry big dissadvantages. And I never said it isn't safe to run that engine to 6k. However, it does do exponentially more harm.

Do you even know how to read a dyno graph? HP and tq cross at 5250 rpm. At 4800 the tq is still above 250. Which means at 4900, the hp is going to keep climbing towards 250 which obviously is a higher peak then the 4800 you claim.

Well, GM claims HP max at 4800rpm. Which essentially means his max VE is at 4800rpm. So how does a turbocharger magically change his VE curve?

Where is the stock peak tq at on the gen 3 motor aaron? Is it 4500 rpm? Or is it 4750 rpm? I mean thats where the tq is roughly peaking at on turbogt's graph right?

Torque peak is irrelevent, as a turbocharger can easily change that depending on how/when the turbocharger spools.

THe DOHC 3.4 has twice as many valves and cams, so there should be alot of power lost through the friction of all that moving parts. What is your obsession with internal friction in engines all of a sudden. You are saying hitting 250HP on stiffer valve springs is going to be tough because it robbs soo much power to push the springs .3" that he would be better off to use the stock, weaker springs and it would be easier to get more HP?? With stiffer springs do come more power to push them, but it isnt much. The difference between driving at night compared to a hot afternoon makes more difference. With the stiffer springs, he can build more revs, and usually with revs, comes more power. Untill the engine cant breath anymore, but that is where the turbo helps out.

The 3.4 DOHC does have twice as many valves, but it has 5 times as many cams, not twice. There is a lot of power lost in the valvetrain on a DOHC engine. However most of our mass is changed from reciprocating to rotating. This is BIG. In a OHV valvetrain, a larg percentage of the valvetrain mass is reciprocating (Pushrods, lifters, rockers, valves, springs). Whereas the only rotating component is the camshaft. In a DOHC configuration, all of our valvetrain mass is rotating except for the lifters (Which are very light), valves, and springs (Which are lower pressure than your's).

I said it might be tough to raise your max power any, because you are already hitting your max VE before float, and the new springs are going to carry with them more resistance, which rises exponentially with RPM. Stiffer springs DO NOT mean more RPM, that is totally incorrect. In your application they do, but that is becuase there is something wrong. If I add stiffer springs to my 3.4 DOHC, I will not only LOSE power across the board, but I will also lose RPM. Revs do NOT mean more power. More RPM means higher potential VE. However not in your case because of your stock cam, stock heads, stock intakes, etc. VE rasies as RPM raises, until the intake tract becomes a restriction to VE, and not a benefit. Which on the 3400 is at 4800rpm. A turbocharger isn't going to overcome your VE falloff. The higher the VE, the more power, even on a turbo application. As your VE falls, your CFM falls. Thus your cylinders get less air/fuel, even though your boost gauge still reads 5psi. Yes, you have 5psi manifold pressure. But your CFM is lowered, thus power goes down. The turbo will help carry your power to redline, but it isn't going to drastically change the point at which your engine hits max HP and VE (4800).

[Unsafe At Any Speed]

I wasn't aware he was running a Megasquirt.

It's right in his sig. That probably was your first clue.

[Aaron]

I wasn't aware he was running a Megasquirt.

It's right in his sig. That probably was your first clue.

Doesn't mean I was aware of it. In order to be aware of something in writing, you'd have to read it. But yah, I missed that :thumbleft:

[Shaun41178(2)]

CHOO CHOO!!!!. Here comes the owned train!!!

And if there is a limiter at 5800, there's a reason for it. The advantages of running past that (None), carry big dissadvantages. And I never said it isn't safe to run that engine to 6k. However, it does do exponentially more harm.

Wow on the 88 Gt's there is no rev limiter. Does that mean GM thought the sky was the limit then on the 88 motors? No limiter means no worries about taking it to 15k rpm right?

Well, GM claims HP max at 4800rpm. Which essentially means his max VE is at 4800rpm. So how does a turbocharger magically change his VE curve?

Torque peak is irrelevent, as a turbocharger can easily change that depending on how/when the turbocharger spools.

How the fuck can you make those two statements back to back and not expect to sound like a total jackass? If the turbocharger can change where the motors TQ peak is, then the turbo does it as well for the hp. Remember aaron they are directly related to each other. WTF you are dumb.

I too love how you are suddenly interested in stiffer valvesprings killing hp. Its obvious the stock ones are too weak so by going to stronger ones he can only make more power with more rpm. However if the stock ones were fine, he wouldnt' need stronger ones in the first place. I don't think anyone is arguing that point with you a-rod.

Another thread ruined by you and how you think you know more then everyone else. Just STFU. I am going to ask Doug or the Pun to delete all your posts in this thread. Its not about you!! Its about TurboGt's dyno numbers.

Every post in this thread by you in this thread from here on out, I will personally delete myself. It will be up to doug or the pun to delete yours. Or be kind and do it yourself.

[Aaron]

glad you spent all that time writing that up aaron. Deleted per...

admin

Oh yea, kickass new avatar.

[crzyone]

Aaron, ever been on a see-saw?

The springs may be harder to compress, but on the way down there is also force on the camshaft which might help turn it.

I'd almost think that stiffer valvesprings would almost help, they would not float and would offer some force on the way back down to turn the camshaft vs no force on the way back down with floating springs.

Since I really don't know, I'm not going to say this is the way it happens but I can't see valvesprings taking a bunch of HP.

[Series8217]

Oh yea, kickass new avatar.

Hahahaha! Who picked it this time? We should set up a system for rotating control of a-rod's avatar. There's plenty of creative genius on this board.

[Aaron]

Aaron, ever been on a see-saw?

The springs may be harder to compress, but on the way down there is also force on the camshaft which might help turn it.

I'd almost think that stiffer valvesprings would almost help, they would not float and would offer some force on the way back down to turn the camshaft vs no force on the way back down with floating springs.

Since I really don't know, I'm not going to say this is the way it happens but I can't see valvesprings taking a bunch of HP.

I honestly didn't even think about this.

I also don't know how this would affect it, but I've never really heard this before, but it makes sense. As I said before, I look forward to him going back to the dyno with nothing else changed. I want to see how much of a difference, if any, it makes.

Who picked it this time? We should set up a system for rotating control of a-rod's avatar. There's plenty of creative genius on this board.

That would be Shaun I think, at least it's hosted via his page. Wouldn't surprise me considering how pissed he's getting because he doesn't understand the basic concept of VE and how it affects power in boosted applications. So pissed to request moderation, which is surprising, this board isn't usually one to edit OUT a technical debate on engine dynamics. Sounds more and more like P.F.F. to me. What's next Shaun?

[Aaron]

glad you spent all that time writing that up aaron. Deleted per...

admin

Oh yea, kickass new avatar.

Oh yes, now it truly is 1 step closer to Cliff's Fun House.

Seems people on Real Fiero Tech cannot carry on a technical debate on engine dynamics without the admin moderating it all out, despite me not flaming or insulting once in the entire post, quite contrary to the other participant, who can flaunt his ignorant and flawed knowledge (Or lack thereof), on a relatively simple concept. Not to mention he is allowed to flame and insult.

But actually debate, NOES. Call the majority, BAN HIM!!

Ok Cliff, you win. Oh, sorry, was your name not Cliff?

[Aaron]

Let's take some input from the admin, who deleted my post despite it following every rule set by the admin himself...Hmmm, that sounds odd to me...And I quote:

The purpose of this section is to talk about track setups.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the internals of an engine that directly correspond to its performance are considered a track setup.

Things that should be talked about are.

Engine mods,
Suspension mods, coilovers, lowering springs.
Alignment settings, Camber and Castor Toe In.
Dyno numbers, Dyno proveable mods and their results.
Race tires, Or sticky street tires
Weight reduction,
Weight transfer including lightening of the car and the weights of each object(s)
Clutch setups.

Hmm, because I was almost fucking positive a turbocharger and related components were engine mods. And I'd think valve springs could be considered a mod too. But we better not discuss their projected results, that'd be BAD.

Pretty much anything that can be shared between us that actually race their cars.

Well I race my car, and have the timeslips to prove it. And I return after adjusting my setup in order to learn more, quite like we want TurboGT to do. And ironically, we held a discussion in my thread on how my setup would change my track performanc BEFORE I ran, then I ran, and we compared. I think that should be moderated out, as it is certainly against the rules, because you moderated the same stuff out here right? Not to mention, and correct me if I'm wrong, but has Shauny EVER raced his car in a safe, controlled atmosphere (1/4mi, autocross, road course)? If he has he certainly hasn't shared it here.

The more technical the better. Also the more scientific of testing of before and after tests should be number one priority. NO MENTION OF BUTT DYNOS to be mentioned here. This is a blasphemous term here in this section. Only real hardcore data is to be expected.

Was I not fucking technical enough? Were my ideas on how a turbocharger reacts to an engine with a given volumetric efficiency and the compressor's adiabatic efficiency not technical enough? Odd, they seemed to be miles over Shaun's ignorant excuse for a brain. Maybe I should have brought in how OHV and DOHC valvetrains differ in respect to rotating and reciprocating masses. OH yah, I FUCKING DID. The only concpt discussed here that I didn't fully understand was the other side of a valve spring. Ironic, the first person to mention it said himself that he didn't fully understand it, at which point we BOTH requested a dyno again, so we could examine our thoughts and see how they actually played out on the dyno.

I hope others agree, you have taken this too far. I was not disrespectful, I was not using faulty or ignorant knowledge (Quite the opposite, in fact), or doing anything wrong. In fact, I not only followed, my posts mirrored your rules. There was nothing wrong with my posts, period. Get off your fucking high horse. And while your at it, get off Shaun's nuts.