DOH!!

nfswift · Post by **nfswift** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:51 pm

Had it less than a week and it's already off the road, I bet this sounds familiar hahaha.

Well, running low on coolant and having a dysfunctional temp gauge is a horrible idea... at least I'm fairly sure that this is what started this.

I had been driving highway for 10 minutes since I parked it last night (it's been running strong/smooth since last Thurs), and had just gotten into town doing about 60km/h and heard a banging sound like I had run over something, I disregarded it as very weird but it didn't sound or feel like it had anything to do with the engine, then once I drove a bit farther there was a second knock and this time a bit worse sounding, don't know how to describe it. There was a slight power loss and the check engine light came on, and that's when it stalled in the intersection. I started it up, but it felt noticeably weaker or sluggish turning over and I had to put my foot into the gas a little to get it to fire, but it did and I continued on, trying to find somewhere closeby to park.

When I turned it off and parked it (about a minute later of running after shit hit the fan) I noticed some wisps of smoke coming from around the valve heads and knew I was really boned. It was a noticeable amount of smoke, even enough to see faintly in the rear view while driving, but not anything drastic, almost like it was burning off oil that had spilled on the manifolds (if that is a good comparison).

I opened the trunk and the coolant resevoir was totally full and it had leaked a small puddle to the ground.

After letting it cool for a good while, I started it and took it across the intersection (another minute of running). It was idling high, well over 1700RPM and still had noticeable power loss.

I came back later this afternoon and bit the bullet and drove it 10 minutes home, had to stop half way to let it smoke and cool down again. As it sits it will probably still start up and idle (afraid to do this at the moment) around 1900RPM last time I checked. It leaked a little more coolant once I parked it, but stopped before a lot circulated out.

Well, it looks like my ride is off the road for a while... what are the bets on how bad this gets?? I'm pretty bummed. I'll have to pull the heads to check valve guides and each piston, then the oil pan to see if I spun a bearing (or two...).

Bollocks...

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:24 am

That bang you heard was "Water Hammer"

It's what happens when you run low on coolant, the car overheats, and the coolant starts to boil in the coolant pipes.

Low coolant means your water pump sucks in a big bubble, and pushes the air pocket into the engine before "cavitating" and stalling. All coolant flow suddenly stops because the pump has nothing to push against.. The area around this bubble heats up VERY quickly. Then the pump "grabs" some coolant and starts pushing again(usually when you give it gas, and the acceleration forces coolant to the rear of the car). Relatively cool coolant hits that "hot spot" and immediately flashes into steam.

It makes a loud bang or thumping noise. If you are standing near the rad, you can watch all the rubber hoses jump.

If you're unlucky--like me-- the large hose near the filler will explode and drench you with boiling water. Thank GOD I was facing away, I could have been blinded. I've still got the scars.

A few possibilities:

1) You got it REALLY warm, and ruined a few hose connections. I've done this before. Go over the car with a flashlight, and look for "wet" hoses. Remove them, and see if the rubber is coming apart. If it's good, replace the clamp and continue. While you're at it, replace BOTH caps on the car, since they aren't venting like they should, and allowing too much pressure to build in the system (and thus blowing hoses)

2) You got it REALLY warm, and warped a head, causing a blown head-gasket. The exhaust may--or may not--smell funny, but when you start driving, the coolant reservoir will start to boil over even with the coolant relatively cold. Watch carefully for ANY of the tell-tale signs; gurgling noises in the coolant, frothy white coolant at the rad, more water-hammering, and a swinging temp guage. Also look for muddy looking oil, or oily looking coolant. You might have one of these, or all of them. When in doubt, check your compression. If that's OK, do a leak-down.

3) You got it really warm, the rear pressure cap released and puked a small amount of coolant onto your engine. The "Smoke" was whatever was left burning off, as well as any grit or crud that was washed onto manifolds.

Honestly, if you aren't hearing a steady knocking noise, at worst you've ruined a head or two--and they are neither expensive nor hard to replace yourself.

Just don't cheap out and throw a junkyard head on it without having it checked, decked, and the valves--AT THE LEAST--lapped.

nfswift · Post by **nfswift** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:06 pm

Thankyou Mach, this was categorically the best reply I have gotten!

I've already got my maintenance plan laid out.

1) Check the oil/coolant to see if they have mingled...

2) Gotta check the whole coolant system and the water pump (to verify the condition of the impellar), and when it's OK to run get the coolant topped off.

3) Check compression to see how the gaskets are holding.

And go from here.

Time to get to work, if only I wasn't rained out today! Damnit all.

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:32 pm

A good question to start out with is "Why am I low on coolant?"

I'd lean towards water pump weeping (which will make your engine steam as the coolant will get EVERYWHERE as it drips onto the pulleys.

Just remember that blown headgaskets can sometimes present no symptoms. Leak-down is the best bet, but sometimes the seepage is so slow that it only really picks up when the engine is at temperature, or is only letting exhaust gas through right at combustion (i.e., leaks against 800psi).

A big air pocket in the coolant (common with low coolant situations) can also make the cooling system act all kinds of weird.

Best bet is to fill the rear until it spills out, cap it, jack the front and fill the rad all the way up. Top up the reservoir, Fast-idle the car until it's at operating temp, and let it cool off for an hour or so. If the level of the reservoir has gone down considerably, pop the rad cap and top-off.

Signs of air in the system are the temp guage swinging back and forth (water pump stalling, then going, then stalling), as well as gurgling or bubbling in the reservoir. Also, if your car is warm and the interior isn't blowing heat, it's a good sign you've got air.

The Fiero cooling system can be an absolute whore to "burp" properly.

The Dark Side of Will · Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:45 pm

Mach10 wrote: Best bet is to fill the rear until it spills out, cap it, jack the front and fill the rad all the way up.

Take off BOTH caps; fill until it's ready to spill out at the front; install front cap; continue to fill at rear until rear is full; install rear cap; fill overflow bottle.

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:55 pm

^^^ What he said with the caps. I fill at the back until it starts coming out the front, cap it, then fill until it comes out the rear. Then I jack the front up so that it's the high-point, and top it off along with the overflow. :blah5:

p8ntman442 · Post by **p8ntman442** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:46 pm

meh, I just fill at the back, never had any problems, and I have had the motor out 4 times I think, therefore drained and filled the coolant atleast 4 times. Thats not to say, your experiance will be the same.

nfswift · Post by **nfswift** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:09 am

Ok, so far, I started the day by draining the oil, it looked overdue for a change, but was straight black with no bad news to speak of.

I then drained the coolant which took a little improvisation, with the back end on ramps I opened the drain valve on the radiator and clamped my shop vacs blow end over the thermostat opening. I pretty much blew out the system as well as I could then replaced the whole thing with straight water (going to change it out ASAP, this was just for testing). I got a GOOD deal more water into the system than mix that I managed to blow out.

With new coolant in, and the system mostly burped (I'm assuming, I got some bubbles from the rad cap until I got straight water) I decided to swap the old oil filter off for a new Fram I just picked up and put a full bottle (about 3.78L) of Valvoline in, I wasn't aware of how much oil the Fiero needs, but about 4 quarts sounded safe, feel free to flame me if I was shy, I tried to find out but my searches revealed no concrete numbers for the 2.8 pan capacity.

So with new oil and new coolant I took it out for a quick drive, it seems to run like it did before, and I see no signs of overheating. Everything seemed ok, hopefully it stays that way.

Looks like I need to buy a new temperature sender (which should fix the buggered gauge?) and possibly a new thermostat?

The only problem is... now when I try and start the car I only get rapid clicking from the starter and no turning over let alone firing.

This car is like a crash refresher course in mechanics! It's great!

Hahahah.

Time to get back to trouble shooting, I don't fancy push starting it every time I leave the house!

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:24 am

There are drain plugs in the coolant tubes right in front of the rear wheels, you know...

Good thinking with the vacuum cleaner

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:49 am

Rapid clicking usually means your battery is flat.

Which is what happens if you leave your decklid open overnight :salute:

My car usually took a little more than 4 quarts... When in doubt, check the dipstick. I usually fill to a little below the "full" line. IIRC, that's aroud 4.5-5 quarts... But it's been a while since I touched a 2.8

nfswift · Post by **nfswift** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:44 pm

Mach10 wrote:Rapid clicking usually means your battery is flat.

Which is what happens if you leave your decklid open overnight :salute:

My car usually took a little more than 4 quarts... When in doubt, check the dipstick. I usually fill to a little below the "full" line. IIRC, that's aroud 4.5-5 quarts... But it's been a while since I touched a 2.8

Damnation, I didn't see those drain plugs Will... I musta not been looking hard enough!?

I'll give the batt a charge and see how that goes, hopefully I'm out of the mud now, apparently it was a little weak when I bought the car, probably worth investing in a new one in the near future. I'll also check the oil level to make sure I'm not running shallow.

I'm still gonna need those sensors to get my gauge working properly again though? Should the gauge just work like it's supposed to once I replace the temp sender plug or is there more to getting it functioning??

Thanks for the help guys!

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:50 pm

Depends on what is boned.

The temp guage is usually wired wrong from the factory, and pegs when you crank over the car. This will eventually toast the guage.

What exactly are the problems you're having?

lucky · Post by **lucky** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:05 pm

here's a good link on fixing the factory temp guage wiring problem

http://www.fierosails.com/tempgage.html

Paul Mckibben(the author) wasn't sure if the wires he refers to are in the same location on other years as they are on the 88, but they were exactly where he described (color was right too) on my 86. I went to radio shack and bought several different sizes of resistors and soldered em in series to get to the 55ohm and 1455ohm loads it calls for.

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:44 pm

Moving to Maintenance

nfswift · Post by **nfswift** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:55 pm

I'll see if the re-wire doesn't help, but my issue was that the needle would wander slowly after starting and not indicate any useful number, sometimes it would run off the cold side (more often than not) and others it would just sit wherever it pleased, I noticed it usually never went off the hot end though. It sits at around 40 degrees when the engine is off.

Definitely noticing the "pegging" issue on startup now that I know to look for it.

nfswift · Post by **nfswift** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:00 am

Also, I got cell video of the clicking issue, I'll host it soon.

The rapidness of the clicking seems to speed and slow depending how far I turn the key on the ignition switch... strange.

I'm still dumbfounded, the battery is on to charge about 3-4 hours now and periodic attempts to start have revealed no change.

EDIT: I am also hearing a faint whining noise from the engine bay once the clicking stops but I hold the key to start it. I am pretty sure the battery is charged now, the dash volt-gauge reads a healthy 12 when I turn the key.

Correct me if I'm wrong but these signs are pointing to a dead starter solenoid. It's wierd the car was starting first time every time all day...

nfswift · Post by **nfswift** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:28 am

Nevermind, signs were pointing to a limp wristed battery.

She fired up okay when I tried a better one in it.

Anyone notice particularly white smoke on cold starts?

I guess I'm used to really rich running exhaust (from my friends carbed v8), but the Fiero exhaust smells way more neutral, you can still smell the cold start injector richening it but the smoke was noticeably white coming out of the exhaust and not as gassy as I'm used to smelling.

I guess I'm still in the honeymoon phase, I'll get used to all this?

At least she still runs!

Fastback86 · Post by **Fastback86** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:30 am

Is it smoke or steam? Steam is no big deal, its usually just condensation in the exhaust system. White smoke means you're burning coolant. You'd be able to smell it. If it is white smoke and you're still loosing coolant, you may have a blown headgasket.

nfswift · Post by **nfswift** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:43 am

It might be steam... it has that laundry type moistness to it. I just am surprised how much collects in the exhaust if that is the case. It doesn't smell smokey, I can only detect the exhaust smell.

I am running straight water for coolant right now, I'm not driving with it, it's just for starting up and trouble shooting, it was short notice and I havn't bought anti-freeze yet. So in this case, I wouldn't be able to smell burning coolant. But the engine stopped pushing the white exhaust last time I was running it (before the old batt died, this was after a heavy rain so I bet drips from the bumper made it to the ehxuast) and I think that may be a sign that I'm mostly ok now.

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:29 am

Head gasket that's blowing coolant into the cyls will usually puff white at startup, but won't do a heck of a lot more until it's up to temperature (i.e,. pressure builds in the cooling system). "Humid" exhaust is no surprise, since gasoline produces CO, CO2, and H2O when burning

If you're running straight water, you probably won't see a lot of smoke, and you certainly won't smell anything.

Switch to coolant, and take it for a 10-15m drive. If you still aren't sure, pull the spark plugs out, and look for any with white crystalline deposits, or any of them that are suspiciously cleaner than the others.