God wrote:So to me, it's plain and simple, learn the fucking language or you aren't getting any help from me.
Good thing you are completely of British heritage right? Cause I would hope all your ancestors knew english and the customs here quite well by the time they arrived. You'd certainly not want to think of them having pissed off every health care provider they met here.
For that matter, maybe the Native Americans should have told the pilgrims to go to hell cause they were of a different culture. That way we wouldnt have to bother with Thanksgiving.
Why do immigrants not pick up English so easily? Granted it's not an easy language to speak well, but Basic is pretty dam simple.
Maybe it's the mixed signals.. They k now what english is SUPPOSED to sound like, but what they hear being practiced is "Yall come back now" and "Gitim Jimbo!"
The Dark Side of Will wrote:That's just pidgin Canadian.
Real Canadian translates "So, I hear you're going out with that bimbo again" to "So, I hear you're going out with that bimbo again, eh?"
True enough.. I've heard some Americans saying that though.. It just seems to flow naturally at the end of a sentence.. But I don't know where people go tthe theory that we have funky accents.. "Oot and aboot eh?".. well, maybe in the east..
The Dark Side of Will wrote:That's just pidgin Canadian.
Real Canadian translates "So, I hear you're going out with that bimbo again" to "So, I hear you're going out with that bimbo again, eh?"
True enough.. I've heard some Americans saying that though.. It just seems to flow naturally at the end of a sentence.. But I don't know where people go tthe theory that we have funky accents.. "Oot and aboot eh?".. well, maybe in the east..
i'm sure canada has its regional dialects just like america and GB
[img]"An armed society is a polite society" - Robert A. Heinlein
"Most folks are educated beyond their intelligence" - Mark Twain
"Our culture" is not something that your ancestors (read: your first gen ancestors) had to assimilate into; it's something they met halfway, i.e. they took on some aspects of the dominant culture and they changed the notion of American into something they fit into. We (read: immigrants; FOBs) don't come to this country thinking, "gee, I can't wait to be just like all those REAL Americans." We come because of opportunities in education, jobs, family, refuge.. you name it. Generally speaking, immigrants aren't lazy; we're struggling to survive. ESL programs at public schools suck, adult literacy programs are underfunded and not incredibly easy to access, and time is a key factor in our (read: immigrants') inability to pick up the language quickly enough for your needs.
If it is such a big problem for you, I can offer you some solutions: 1) Become an adult literacy teacher; 2) Volunteer to pass out fliers in other languages as a means of bringing people into literacy programs; 3) Become an ESL teacher in a public school.
kayamate wrote:"Our culture" is not something that your ancestors (read: your first gen ancestors) had to assimilate into; it's something they met halfway, i.e. they took on some aspects of the dominant culture and they changed the notion of American into something they fit into.
I've mixed feelings on this subject.
The day before I started high school, I moved to Europe. I was living in a country that is at minimum bi lingual by law (Belgium), going to an english speaking school and surronded by mostly affluent people who spoke my language. There was no reason for me, as an American, to learn the language. I tried, and got passable at French, but the majority of the American community there really didn't put all that much effort into learning. So I can understand, if not neccesarily endorse the attitude that immigrants have towards learning the language.
I now live in Salinas California. The salad bowl of the world. 80 percent of the worlds greens come from this valley. I don't know how to tell you this, but Skip and LaMont aren't out there picking that lettuce. The median home price in this city is $600,000. In the Monterey County, it's closer to a million. We've got whole families living in one room. Imagine your whole life condensed to one room, picking lettuce and strawberrires out in the fields 7 days a week to pay your $900 month rent for that room, trying to feed your family and keep them healthy. And this is better then where you came from? How much time do you have for English classes?
Believe me, I feel the frustration of the middle class white American male. I am one, and a proud one at that. I live in a town where anglos are the minority, and a not very well received on at that. I get very frustrated when I go to the auto parts store to buy a socket kit, but al the kits are stocked spanish side up and I have to flip them over to read them. My town has gone so the other way that I feel like I should be getting out my passport when I get off the freeway. People get shot in gang shootings in the mall at Christmas. Will having abuelo and abuela speak English keep that from happening? No.
kayamate wrote:
If it is such a big problem for you, I can offer you some solutions: 1) Become an adult literacy teacher; 2) Volunteer to pass out fliers in other languages as a means of bringing people into literacy programs; 3) Become an ESL teacher in a public school.
How hard is it to learn "Thank you, come again"???????? :scratch:
Maybe I'm just a little too brown to understand where you are coming from. When did the US have to be so damn euro/anglocentric? What's so bad about having to turn a socket kit over to read the English side? And is it that frightening to feel like a minority (because some of us don't have the option of moving to the next state in order to feel like we fit in)? I'm happy you feel proud to be a middle class white American male; don't you think poor, non-white, non-citizen, non-males (or some combination of these) should have the option to feel proud and comfortable, too?
Granted: gang shootings suck, no matter where they happen, when they happen, or who is doing the shooting, but gang shootings are not a product of non-white immigrants; rather they are a product of poverty and bad policy-making. In fact, if you've read much of early American immigrant history (read: your American ancestors' histories), you might find that Irish, Italian, etc gangs were prevalent then; they were poor and they had nowhere to turn but to violence and crime. In addition, if you read early Chinese American history, you'll find that the Chinese formed close knit groups in certain parts of cities (many of which are still known as Chinatowns today) because they met with racism and violence if they went outside of these boundaries (i.e. whites hated their accents, their fashion, their "cheap labor" title, their way of doing things and reacted by beating them up, destroying their businesses, or even killing them). Maybe instead of blaming gang shootings on minority groups, you can blame them on the people who offer jobs, control public education, and so on.. but wait, we can't blame rich white people. That would be un-American!
Oh, and that "thank you, come again" comment was a cheap shot, but I do appreciate you ability to get right to the root of the issue: your own idiotic notions about race. Maybe the other problem is that some of you group all non-whites in one category. Because we can't speak English, we're lazy and uneducated, right? And because we're not white, we're supposed to man your convenience stores, instead of becoming your "middle class" equals?
ps - i love you too, bri
Last edited by kayamate on Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"what stops most people in their tracks is a small mental packet of energy. it is called a thought. they think 'i can't.'" -rex steven sikes, founder of IDEA seminars
kayamate wrote:Maybe I'm just a little too brown to understand where you are coming from. When did the US have to be so damn euro/anglocentric? What's so bad about having to turn a socket kit over to read the English side? And is it that frightening to feel like a minority (because some of us don't have the option of moving to the next state in order to feel like we fit in)? I'm happy you feel proud to be a middle class white American male; don't you think poor, non-white, non-citizen, non-males (or some combination of these) should have the option to feel proud and comfortable, too?
Wow, a whole lot of anger coming from that side of the room. Now multiply that attitude by about 50,000 and you know what it's like to be a white guy in my town.
I used the socket example as a minor annoyance that shows where the local mindset is. The socket set packaging is printed in Spanish on one side and English on the other. Before you write me off as some spoiled suburbanite demanding that everything be Anglo-centric, I have taken my time out of my schedule to take adult school classes in Spanish to the point where I can read most packaging in Spanish. But if one language is going to have to be inconvenienced, why English? Not something that makes me want to riot in the streets, just something that makes me go hmmm.
As far as whether or not I believe all the things you listed that aren't me have a right to work for a comfortable existence, of course I do. I don't know who you have me confused with, but take a slower read on what I wrote. I see around me every day people working all day in the fields bent over to the ground so someone in Wisconsin can have cheap strawberries on their ice cream. My wife, a speech pathologist for the county office of education, does home visits where families share a garage with another family (and I don't mean to park their cars in). AND YET, this is better then where they came from. How can I not respect and admire that work ethic? How can I not appreciate the fact that they make the economy in this area? How would you like to pay $20 for a salad?
Go back, I said I have mixed feelings. As with most complex issues, if all you can see is one side of the situation, then you're not looking at it close enough sometimes.
PS, Welcome to the forum. I almost feel like someone should be offering up a leg hump to make you feel properly recognized.
Last edited by stimpy on Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you Stimpy.. I appreciate your opinion.. and I want to thank you for welcoming my friend to the forum. She is a very intelligent and wordly girl, and I hope all of us treat her with the respect everyone else gets in here
stimpy wrote:
Wow, a whole lot of anger coming from that side of the room. Now multiply that attitude by about 50,000 and you know what it's like to be a white guy in my town.... But if one language is going to have to be inconvenienced, why English?
Sorry if that first section came off as "anger." I'd say, it's more along the lines of frustration (probably similar to a lot of the frustration you're feeling as a minority in your town). I guess I personally don't think it's a big deal if English has to step down to Spanish. Maybe it's because I don't live there and hence, don't have to worry about learning Spanish. Or maybe it's because the town is obviously at a point where there are more Spanish speakers than English ones. So, Spanish seems the obvious first language, regardless of what the town was like 30 (or even 10) years ago. I really respect that you've adapted and learned Spanish. I'm not calling you a spoiled suburbanite who demands that all things be anglo-centric, but as you can guess, I've had a lot of silly battles with white American men who sincerely doubt my intelligence, my ability to communicate in English, and my "ethnic"/national affiliation specifically because of the color of my skin and their assumptions about little brown girls.
I should say that you sound much more intelligent and balanced in your thinking than most of the people on this post. Sorry if I grouped your post with all the racist/anti-immigrant posts; I just take that shit personally because I'm an immigrant; my parents, close friends, family, boyfriend are all immigrants. It's not easy to learn another language and it's definitely not easy to just become something/someone you're not. Regardless of how long I have been a citizen, I'm still considered a foreigner because of how I look. Similarly, regardless of how long other Americans have been in the country, the way they look, their accents, the fact that they have another first language all determine how "Americans" (read: white Ams) will receive them.
Thanks for the welcome. I know it's impossible to not take these discussions personally, but just know that my posts aren't meant to be personal attacks.
"what stops most people in their tracks is a small mental packet of energy. it is called a thought. they think 'i can't.'" -rex steven sikes, founder of IDEA seminars
kayamate wrote:
Similarly, regardless of how long other Americans have been in the country, the way they look, their accents, the fact that they have another first language all determine how "Americans" (read: white Ams) will receive them.
and thats not racist? I have no problems with imigrants as long as they are trying to merge with american culture language.
but calling out specificly white americans is racism in itself, around here the most racist people are the "minorities", and also the most hypocritical. One example is a lot of blacks getting upset about the word ni**er but using it with eachother and spouting off a slew of racist names for other ethnicities. Double standards are a major issue with trying to get rid of racism and encourage diversity.
Kohburn wrote:
around here the most racist people are the "minorities", and also the most hypocritical. One example is a lot of blacks getting upset about the word ni**er but using it with eachother and spouting off a slew of racist names for other ethnicities. Double standards are a major issue with trying to get rid of racism and encourage diversity.
It's not just "around here", it's in a good part of American culture now. I see many TV shows where minorities make fun of white people, or make fun of themselves, and because they are a minority, it somehow makes it ok. But if a white person does the same thing, they are racist.
A couple of things about English. Yes, it is a very hard language to learn. An example of why: French has approximately ~40 irregular verbs in it's entire language, English has over 2000. It is a complex language. I deal with foreigners from all around the world every single day and I have found that you have to ask questions a certain way to get people to understand. Even people who speak pretty good english will almost never understand the term "often". English is about the only language that uses this term.
That being said, learning English living in America is vital to even a remote chance of success. Learning English is the only way someone, whether they be white, black, brown, purple, will be able to succeed in America. I can't even say it's the only way to be successful just in America. English is the language of big business. Multi-National Corporations all around the world do the vast majority of their business in English. It's easier than everyone using their own language and having to convert it.
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It's not just "around here", it's in a good part of American culture now. I see many TV shows where minorities make fun of white people, or make fun of themselves, and because they are a minority, it somehow makes it ok.
T.V. shows are produced, directed, and funded mostly by rich white men..
kayamate wrote:Maybe instead of blaming gang shootings on minority groups, you can blame them on the people who offer jobs, control public education, and so on.. but wait, we can't blame rich white people. That would be un-American!
When there's a gang shooting, I blame the person(s) who pulled the trigger(s). Perhaps this is too down to earth of me.
Instead of blaming rich white men for the plights of immigrant workers, maybe you should encourage them to take personal responsibility and stop shooting each other... Wait, that would be un-American.
Personally I see gang violence as domestic terrorism. Sure, there wouldn't be any Jihad if there were no non muslims, so it's my fault as a westerner when a bus gets blown up on the Gaza strip?
I think prohibition has a great deal to do with gang violence. Don't try to tell me it's lack of alternatives. This area, while having some of the poorer people around, has some of the richest people around as well, with Monterey, Carmel, and Pebble Beach being a short drive away. There are MILLIONS of dollars donated to anti gang programs in addition to what the municipalities, county and state provide. We have a Boys and Girls Club, YMCA and after school activities that are incomparable. Yet people are getting shot every week. It's not the suburbanite housewife getting shot at, although she may get it in the crossfire. Is the other Pelon thug drug slanger. It's the easy money. It's the 19 year old kids driving Benzes through the projects.
I used to be sooooo liberal in my thinking. I still like to think that I am open minded. But I've grown up running with these guys, riding with them on deals. It isn't the lack of education. They had schooling. It wasn't the lack of jobs. We all had legit jobs we paid taxes on. It's easy money. Take away that, and I don't reckon I got no reason to kill nobody.[/slingblade]
kayamate wrote:Maybe instead of blaming gang shootings on minority groups, you can blame them on the people who offer jobs, control public education, and so on.. but wait, we can't blame rich white people. That would be un-American!
you think they are getting blaimed for a shootign because they are a minority? when infact its because they are in a gang that encourages violence as a right of passage? and it just so happens that many of the gang members are from ethnic minorities..
there are planty of wealthy "non-white" people in america - most of the doctors i know are from India and they speak pretty good english for being first generation Americans. Where I grew up there were two neighboring towns, one with 50% white, 30% black, 20% other that was a wealthy town and next to it was a military based town of poor whities, blacks, and asians. their behavior was social not ethnic, it had nothing to do with skin color
I get so tired of people blaiming things on skin color, people need to take some fucking responsibility for their actions and grow up.
"oh its not my fault i slaughtered a bunch of people at school, my daddy beat me, so put him in jail instead" maybe if people knew they were going to get their nuts put in a vise for murder they would be less likely to do it.
Last edited by Kohburn on Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
