Getrag 282 insights

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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Series8217
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Post by Series8217 »

Atilla the Fun wrote:6000 to 3500 is excellent for taking maximum advantage of any decent V8, or even a Twin Dual Cam 3.4. I'd bet you've never driven anything with ratios as close as you propose, but I can tell you from experience that ratios too close is worse than ratios too far apart, you'll find yourself skip-shifting. A Northstar sure can handle the ratios of any Fiero stick-shift, but whatever makes you happy.
There's nothing wrong with all the ratios being pretty close together. Just shift. If they're too far apart, there is nothing you can do to power out of turns. It's useless. Do you just drive in a straight line or have you ever driven on a road course/canyon roads? I can tell you from experience that all the GM FWD ratios suck, with the possible exception of the Getrag 284 which is not easy to find and impossible to rebuild.
I have a TDC 3.4 in my car that has seen the road course, drag strip, and LOTS of canyon time, with various gear sets.
I've used the Isuzu (3.73/2.04/1.45/1.03), Getrag (3.50/2.05/1.38/0.94/0.72), Getrag (3.50/2.19/1.38/1.03/0.81), and Getrag (3.50/2.05/1.38/1.03/0.81).

The Isuzu ratios suck even in a straight line. The drop from 1st to 2nd puts you 500rpm below the start of the powerband. 2nd gear is VERY long and is useful in one place: Streets of Willow Springs (the smaller road course at Willow Springs International Raceway). It just so happens that with a TDC you're in 2nd gear in the powerband for the whole track with the exception of the front straight where you briefly shift into 3rd. It worked out nice. The Isuzu is useless for other performance driving. It's dismal in the canyons.
All the Getrag ratios work "ok" at the drag strip... but the 1st to 2nd drop in the 3.50/2.05 set is too big; you can't shift quickly from 7000 RPM into 2nd with a stock clutch and aluminum flywheel. Maybe with a small diameter multi-disk you could. Since the shift is so long and this happens so early in the run, I would imagine it has a measureable affect on the ET, though I have no way of testing this. Note that this is on a fully rebuilt Getrag with all new synchro rings.
In the canyons, too far apart is useless; there are corners you can't find a gear to pull you out of because there is NO gear that puts you in the power band.
With the 3.50/2.19 set, the shift from 1st to 2nd is perfect and wonderful. I LOVE the shift feel and RPM drop. However, with 2 so short, 2nd and 3rd are way too far apart and put you at the bottom of the powerband. 2nd ends up being too short in the canyons, and 3rd far too long and far away so there are LOTS of turn exits you cannot pick a gear for. It's useless on a tight road course like Streets, as well as canyon roads. It's very nice on the street though; 1st and 2nd feel great and get you up to a reasonable speed (~65mph) at the top of 2nd.
I'm now using 3.50/2.05/1.38/1.03/0.81. I wish I would've gone with 0.72 for the 5th because even on the Grapevine I don't have to shift out of 5th as long as I keep it above 65mph. I could probably squeeze a few more mpg out of it with the longer 5th. This set is good besides the 1st to 2nd (3.50 to 2.05) shift. It's too slow due to the synchros not being able to keep up with the large RPM drop. The Getrag doesn't seem to like shifting much above 6000 RPM.
I think the ideal set would just have a longer 1st gear, and the rest similar to this set. Maybe a steeper 5th.
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Post by Atilla the Fun »

Actually, I have experience with even wider ratios in canyon carving. The '93-'02 V6 Camaros/Firebirds ALL came with either the 4L60E, which we're not discussing, or a T5 with these ratios: 3.75, 2.19, 1.41, 1.00, 0.72
And while I wondered what it would be like with the T5-Z and a 3.73:1 rear, I can tell you of driving an '87 Mustang 5.0 with 3.35, 1.93, 1.29 first second and third ratios, through a twisty and hilly bit of the Appalachians. See, there are worse ratio sets than the 282, what you need is an engine that can pull a 282. See the dyno sheet I just posted in my 5.3 build thread. That thing pulls from 1500 to 6800 rpm. Go look, it'll just take a minute.
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Post by Nashco »

Series, you may want to mention what final drive (diff ratio) you're using when talking about how gearsets match certain tracks, canyon carving, drag racing, grapevine cruising, etc. A 3.94 vs. 3.61 could make a significant difference in some of those situations.

Bryce
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Series8217
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Post by Series8217 »

Those T5 ratios are about the same as the Fiero's Getrag 282 as far as closeness goes.

I've seen the 5.3 chart on GM's site and the Car Craft articles. It does NOT pull to 6800. Sorry. Not sure where you got that figure. Looks more like 5500 to 6000 for the shift point..
Additionally, with that much torque 1st gear is totally useless.. it's not well matched. Maybe a long geared Muncie 4-spd would work well with it.
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Post by Nashco »

Atilla the Fun wrote:how desperate are you for it? is it something that can be found in a salvage yard?
I have four at my disposal that are currently not in transmissions, but they all have a hole in them. The problem is that you punch a hole in it to remove it from the transmission, you can't disassemble the trans without removing this cover and it is similar to a freeze plug. The service manual clearly shows you how to remove it, and like Will said you can "fix" them and reuse them, but you're *supposed* to replace them. On my road cars I've always just fixed and reused, but on the race car we don't want to risk it.

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Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Nashco wrote:Series, you may want to mention what final drive (diff ratio) you're using when talking about how gearsets match certain tracks, canyon carving, drag racing, grapevine cruising, etc. A 3.94 vs. 3.61 could make a significant difference in some of those situations.

Bryce
Ditto... The Fiero Isuzu has a 3.35 final, which is going to hurt it a lot in performance terms relative to the 3.61 in the Getrag.

I've decided I'm going with the 3.94 when I get the Northstar car back on the road.

Everything else Series said is spot on... the lower gears in these drag race biased transmissions are just too far apart. You're frequently left without a good gear for what you want to do. There are turns on Deal's Gap that were too slow to come out hard with 2nd, yet way too fast to try to get all the way down into 1st. Sure the Northstar could pull (it will accelerate from 1000 RPM in 5th gear), but it wasn't pulling as well as it could. One of the strengths of the Fiero chassis is the grip for fantastic off-corner acceleration. To have that compromised by the transmission is a real pisser because the Fiero doesn't have a heck of a lot going for it in terms of handling.
Last edited by The Dark Side of Will on Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Series8217
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Post by Series8217 »

Nashco wrote:Series, you may want to mention what final drive (diff ratio) you're using when talking about how gearsets match certain tracks, canyon carving, drag racing, grapevine cruising, etc. A 3.94 vs. 3.61 could make a significant difference in some of those situations.

Bryce
I'm using the 3.61 with all Getrag ratios (the Isuzu was stock Fiero 3.35). You're right that it could make a significant difference in some of the situations (specific canyon roads and tracks).

In some cases I imagine it would be better because it reduces the need to use the lower gears. With the gearset I'm using right now, it might be awesome because I would not have to shift into 1st except at VERY low speeds. This reduces the use of the one poor spread of the gear set I'm using. For the 3.50/2.19 it would probably be worse because you'd have to be doing the 2nd to 3rd shift much more often.
It's going to depend on the track or road.. the problem is there is STILL some speeds at which you cannot pick a gear which puts you in the powerband. The shorter final drive doesn't help with that, but it can reduce the problem by moving those speeds out of the range of the track or road.
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Post by Nashco »

What's your big selling points for the 3.94 Will? I intended to use the 3.94, but after racing the SCX with the W41 quad 4, I got to thinking that it might be a bit too much gearing for a road-based car. Since I do enough track events with dedicated race cars I don't need the Fiero for track days, the occassional autocross or canyon carving would be the only time I'd benefit from the different gear set it seems. Now I'm having mixed emotions since I'm wondering if the increased highway RPMs and reduced fuel economy will be worth ditching the 3.61.

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Post by lucky »

Bryce, you try the company I posted on page 1 of this thread? See if they'll sell you just the detent cover?
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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

EP Limited Slip (from http://www.engineered.net ) installed in a later "large" Getrag diff. Next time I have the box in The Mule apart (this winter for 3.94 installation) I'll snap a pic of the early "small" diff (and Gr8Grip) next to this one.

MUCH beefier springs and plates than a Gr8Grip:

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You can see just a sliver of bronze under the side gear in this photo:

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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by Atilla the Fun »

You bought an EP? Where's the thread detailing installing that? That bit about having to re-shim the diff still intimidates me, what with no instructional video, and no reliable supply of all possible shims, with good part numbers, at fair prices.
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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Looks good Will.

Will can you confirm or deny a 3.77 first gear in some of the quad 4 getrags? I have been eyeballing the ones on ebay with the 3.94 FD but I heard rumors some have the shorter first.
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:Looks good Will.

Will can you confirm or deny a 3.77 first gear in some of the quad 4 getrags? I have been eyeballing the ones on ebay with the 3.94 FD but I heard rumors some have the shorter first.
I don't think GM ever built a transmission for domestic use that had the 3.77 and 3.94 both.
I have heard of an international minivan application that used that combo, though.
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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

is the only tranny with the 2.19 second from a 2.0 turbo sunbird?

doing more research I guess Jeff has stated that the 3dff getrags on ebay have the 3.77 first gear.
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

You can't get 2nd gear by itself. The input side is integral with the input shaft.
There are three input shafts: 3.50/2.05 (MG2), 3.50/2.19 (early Q4, etc.), and 3.77/2.19 (W-body & minivan).

Not sure what the turbo Sunbirds had, but my 3.50/2.19 input shaft came from an early Quad 4 Beretta (88? 89?). Series8217 has one also.

The transmission section of 60 degree V6 used to have a listing of the 282 gear ratios by application.
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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by Atilla the Fun »

Those Q4 boxes are the only ones I ever find at the salvage yards. Maddening.
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Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Series8217 wrote:
I'm now using 3.50/2.05/1.38/1.03/0.81.
What did you do with your 3.50/2.19/1.38/1.03/.81? You still have it laying around?
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Atilla the Fun wrote:Those Q4 boxes are the only ones I ever find at the salvage yards. Maddening.
Pick it up and swap bellhousings.
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:
Atilla the Fun wrote:Those Q4 boxes are the only ones I ever find at the salvage yards. Maddening.
Pick it up and swap bellhousings.
-Pick it up
-take it apart
-mix/match parts with your Fiero 282
-send steel parts to be cryo treated
-send wear parts to be REM polished
-reassemble
-enjoy as a side with generous helpings of 5.3
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Re: Getrag 282 insights

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Will do you have any extra v6 bellhousings laying around? From a fragged getrag perhaps?
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
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