Would you genetically modify your child?

[DiggityBiggity]

This experiment we call civilization, which has only been around for 7,000 years, is going to fall on its ass for a reason. All the said above, contribute greatly towards it.

Your Fuhrer

Diggity"Let Darwinism Rule"Biggity

[eHoward]

My genetically modified kids are going to wooop ass on your "natural" ones.

:la:

This experiment we call civilization, which has only been around for 7,000 years, is going to fall on its ass for a reason. All the said above, contribute greatly towards it.

Your Fuhrer

Diggity"Let Darwinism Rule"Biggity

[Lex]

Every time we try to fix one problem, we create a couple bigger ones...

[The Dark Side of Will]

We have no right to genetically mess with anything and think it would make it better.. That's such an arrogant statement..

Your Fuhrer

Diggity"Vote for me"Biggity

There's no legal document anywhere that defines our "right" to genetically engineer anything, so technically your are correct.
However, we will soon have the ability to do quite a bit. Think Moore's law regarding commercially available computing power was somethin? You ain't seen nothing yet. The pace of development of genetic engineering in the next 20 years will make Moore's law seem like the pace of a snail.

Hell, there's already a class at MIT to bring genetic engineering into the real of computer engineering. Students are WRITING THE GENETIC CODE of simple organisms. Microbes that flash at very regular intervals are some of the first prodcuts of that effort.

It's not whether we have the "right" to do this or not... it's deciding what to do that's going to be the problem.

[The Dark Side of Will]

You and millions of others already are and have been for centuries. Corrective eye lenses, grocery stores providing food, modern healthcare, Viagra, etc promote a genetic deficiancy in the gene-pool, thus causing "un-natural" genetic variation.

There is no difference between this and directly modifying the genes IMO. I think its very black and white: Either you support Genetic Engineering or you should not visit the doctor anymore.

Think long term -- thousand years from now (even without direct genetic engineering) we will have produced humans that can no longer live without medical augmentation. Look at all the C-Sections that are being done today, that would have otherwise, ended that bad genetic mutuation long ago of not having a baby "naturally". Soon C-Section will be the norm and natural child birth will be the un-natural rare mutation.

(oh and yes I am an old school trekkie)

Complications with pregnancy are not always the result of harmful genetic abnormality. In fact VERY FEW complications with pregnancy are the result of harmful genetic abnormalities. Pregnancy and child birth are long complicated processes which we are only beginning to understand.
I was born C-section for no other reason than that I was too big a baby to come out the typical way.

There's a very big difference between corrective lenses and genetic engineering.
Find someone with really bad eyesight and put on their glasses. You may get a headache, but your genes didn't change. Your kid won't be born with bad vision because you tried on someone else's glasses. The same holds true for eye surgery. I'm planning on having eye surgery in the next year and a half or so (I see 20/20, but have a bit of astigmatism). That won't mean that my kid will be born with better eyesight.

I think that OSHA has done more for the disruption of evolution than anything. Since OSHA came about, stupid people can't get themselves killed in heavy machinery NEARLY as easily as they used to be able to.

[The Dark Side of Will]

This experiment we call civilization, which has only been around for 7,000 years, is going to fall on its ass for a reason. All the said above, contribute greatly towards it.

Your Fuhrer

Diggity"Let Darwinism Rule"Biggity

What's that reason?
Energy is civilization. Once we learn how to utilize fusion energy, civilization will never go away.

[zonyl]

This experiment we call civilization, which has only been around for 7,000 years, is going to fall on its ass for a reason. All the said above, contribute greatly towards it.

Civilization wont fail as long as we master directly modifying genetics to overcome the anti-darwinian impact of our healthcare. Its not about rights or ethics, its about the need of genetic engineering, just to surive as a race.

We started this path the moment we were able to comprehend and use tools to "enhance" our lives. If we stop short now and dont pursue the use of the tool called "genetic engineering", we wont make it to our destination and might fall off a cliff.

Yes, this tool will be abused, but no more or less than anything else we have done. People are afraid of it for selfish "he has an advantage that I didnt" reasons. On the whole, I think it will create a much better civilization for future generations.

In the Botony Bay episode the only way the script writers could make a convincing argument against modification of genes producing a better race, was to introduce a sort of insanity along with the augmentations. Dont get caught up in a plot writters need to entertain, what if Kahn and friends were not only better mentally and physically, but had better ethics and morals than us as well! Would we be so comfortable watching the episode and Kirk leaving them on a planet alone, or would we be hoping Kahn would take he ship away from the primitive humans and do greater things?

[The Dark Side of Will]

Civilization wont fail as long as we master directly modifying genetics to overcome the anti-darwinian impact of our healthcare. Its not about rights or ethics, its about the need of genetic engineering, just to surive as a race.

We started this path the moment we were able to comprehend and use tools to "enhance" our lives. If we stop short now and dont pursue the use of the tool called "genetic engineering", we wont make it to our destination and might fall off a cliff.

Tools enhance our survivability. I can out survive you if I have a gun and you have a blunt rock. More advanced tools enhance survivability, but allow more mundane individuals to survive more mundane things.

Yes, this tool will be abused, but no more or less than anything else we have done. People are afraid of it for selfish "he has an advantage that I didnt" reasons. On the whole, I think it will create a much better civilization for future generations.

In the Botony Bay episode the only way the script writers could make a convincing argument against modification of genes producing a better race, was to introduce a sort of insanity along with the augmentations. Dont get caught up in a plot writters need to entertain, what if Kahn and friends were not only better mentally and physically, but had better ethics and morals than us as well! Would we be so comfortable watching the episode and Kirk leaving them on a planet alone, or would we be hoping Kahn would take he ship away from the primitive humans and do greater things?

I don't think it was a device of the writers or producers... Just that someone who starts WWIII isn't going to be a nice person. I think that there's more so say about the upbringing of these genetically engineered folks... iw, the moral direction they were given during their upbringings relative to considering it their place to rule over un-engineered humans.

So how do you engineer ethics and morals into a person along with strength, intelligence, etc?
Unengineered people are both evil and good just like engineered people.

[zonyl]

So how do you engineer ethics and morals into a person along with strength, intelligence, etc?
Unengineered people are both evil and good just like engineered people.

As you may know, every human brain has been claimed to be made up of over 10^14 neurons with thousands of interconnections between each. Being an avid researcher of software driven neural network technologies (back propogating networks), I have simulated similar configurations (on a far far smaller scale) and seen how the sets of neurons adjacent to each other tend to specialize in functionality. I believe, this is also true of the human brain as well and generally people's brains regardless of upbringing create these specialized areas similar to each other. However, people that have had trauma to the brain will of course cause a re-organization of those areas and be further unique (those would be in a very small minority)

To speed up the training process of a neural network system, I have been experimenting with identifying general areas of the neural network that receive negative bias (unwanted behaviour) more than other areas. Using this information, I tamper with the neurons in that area to have an override to force them to ignore their biasing whenever I choose. In essence, the neurons are still a part of the system and can facilitate logical decisions during the training process. However, I have the ability to persuade it to learn the correct behaviour faster and then freeze the state at which it learned.

I would imagine, given time, we could do something similar to human brain through genetic manipulation to create a pre-disposition of sense of care towards other human beings. This would be similar and added upon the "primitive" behaviour that is known upon birth; stomach signals need for food, reaction to pain, crying to get attention, etc. We could add a sense of "being conscious of others makes you feel really good".

[zonyl]

Civilization wont fail as long as we master directly modifying genetics to overcome the anti-darwinian impact of our healthcare. Its not about rights or ethics, its about the need of genetic engineering, just to surive as a race.

We started this path the moment we were able to comprehend and use tools to "enhance" our lives. If we stop short now and dont pursue the use of the tool called "genetic engineering", we wont make it to our destination and might fall off a cliff.

Tools enhance our survivability. I can out survive you if I have a gun and you have a blunt rock. More advanced tools enhance survivability, but allow more mundane individuals to survive more mundane things.

Then you have a dependence on a tool to survive (what if you run out of ammo and cannot obtain more). If that tool is taken away, the person with the better genetics to survive, will. If an asteriod strikes plunging us into "nuclear winter" and hospitals and complex tools are useless and not available, think of how many people wouldnt be able live anymore and to be born without a C-Section. Only those with a better genetic hygene will perpetuate.

[Kohburn]

exactly

we are currently in an age of survival of the smartest
not an age of survival of the physicaly superior

both are geneticly driven but still require the individual to act on their genetic predisposition. (except int he case of resistant to disease, natural birth, quickness of healing, etc)

[The Dark Side of Will]

I would imagine, given time, we could do something similar to human brain through genetic manipulation to create a pre-disposition of sense of care towards other human beings. This would be similar and added upon the "primitive" behaviour that is known upon birth; stomach signals need for food, reaction to pain, crying to get attention, etc. We could add a sense of "being conscious of others makes you feel really good".

This just in: We've been doing this for thousands of years. It's called good parenting.

[eHoward]

I wouldn't say that. Ever watch Jerry Springer. It's not the rocket scientists having 10 kids.

we are currently in an age of survival of the smartest
not an age of survival of the physicaly superior

[The Dark Side of Will]

Then you have a dependence on a tool to survive (what if you run out of ammo and cannot obtain more). If that tool is taken away, the person with the better genetics to survive, will. If an asteriod strikes plunging us into "nuclear winter" and hospitals and complex tools are useless and not available, think of how many people wouldnt be able live anymore and to be born without a C-Section. Only those with a better genetic hygene will perpetuate.

In your "reduced to nothing" world, the fact that I even have a gun means that I made that gun... and will still survive a lot better than you if all you can come up with is the aforementioned blunt rock.
Humans survived because we made tools in the first place. Yes, in the event of the collapse of civilization, many will die, but they won't die because they are genetically inferior. They will die because they lack the basic knowledge required to live off the land. Those who know how will make the simple tools required to live off said land and we'll come back to where we are now, eventually. That's obviously overlooking the fact that we are probably well above the maximum population which our land area can support with primitive farming techniques.
You're probably going to go on about advanced farming techniques being the devil, but all they really do is give otherwise viable individuals a chance they wouldn't have with the use of primitive farming techniques.

There's no such thing as "generic survivability". Survivability depends on the environment. A smaller weaker person will survive better on less food than a larger stronger person, but a larger stronger person will survive better in hand-to-hand combat than a smaller weaker person.

[JohnnyK]

I wouldn't say that. Ever watch Jerry Springer. It's not the rocket scientists having 10 kids.

we are currently in an age of survival of the smartest
not an age of survival of the physicaly superior

EXACTLY.. I might have already said this, but me and my buddy were having a discussion (argument?) on evolution. I Agreed with him.. All evolution is, is having the right 'tools' to survive, with the goal of reproducing more than the other 'guy'.. Who will be more abundant in the future.. It's not doctors and their wives accidently popping out 50 kids, it's the whitetrash of hte world.. Hell, my girlfriends best friend (unfortunately) has popped out 3 already at the age of 22, and finally aspired to her dream of securing a welfare cheque and low income housing.. We are now evolving towards uneducation and stupidity.

[zonyl]

It's not doctors and their wives accidently popping out 50 kids, it's the whitetrash of hte world.. Hell, my girlfriends best friend (unfortunately) has popped out 3 already at the age of 22, and finally aspired to her dream of securing a welfare cheque and low income housing.. We are now evolving towards uneducation and stupidity.

While that is true, it is also true if there were a mass kill event on earth (bigger asteroid than the one coming near in 2029 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 90,00.html ), we arent going to be sending white trash to mars. It will be the doctors wife and kids alone making the trip off of the dying planet. Or to be less dramatic, as time goes on people will require more and more healthcare, 1000+years from now, most kids will probably need drugs in order to live. If white trash is popping out 50+ kids, then they will find it cost prohibitive.
--
To put it back on topic: I think everyone will be modifying their kids once they see a majority of others doing it. (And it will be a majority soon enough). http://webcenter.health.webmd.netscape. ... nting=true

[JohnnyK]

It's not doctors and their wives accidently popping out 50 kids, it's the whitetrash of hte world.. Hell, my girlfriends best friend (unfortunately) has popped out 3 already at the age of 22, and finally aspired to her dream of securing a welfare cheque and low income housing.. We are now evolving towards uneducation and stupidity.

Or to be less dramatic, as time goes on people will require more and more healthcare, 1000+years from now, most kids will probably need drugs in order to live. If white trash is popping out 50+ kids, then they will find it cost prohibitive.
--

True, but they won't die from it, at least not in numbers great enough to bring back the balance.. In a sense, the government has circumvented evolution.. They SHOULD be dying, but won't...