3800 Headers....

[Boscolingus]

With all the slamming of WCF 3800 headers over at Pffer, I began to wonder - are the WCF headers realley that small? I mean I remember the port diameter being the same as the diameter on the head when I was welding up the flanges

I know everyone has thier own opinion about about each manufacturer and what not, but jeses, are some guys on payroll to bash WCF?

And that one cock saying something about how "That owner is a boat guy why got into Fieros" - another sudden urge to book a flight, book a ring, book a set of gloves, etc....

Starting to hate Fiero Owners again

[crzyone]

Fiero owners are the reason I wanted to sell my fiero.

[Shaun41178(2)]

get cliffy to lock the thread. He does that whenever people bash V8Archie. Only seems fair he does the same in a wcf bashing thread.

Are they small? I don't know, but they are made to fit the fiero engine bay, and are the only game in town. Who else makes them that routes like a stock fiero exhaust? Noone. So just tell them what the V8Archie nutdraggers tell everyone else who bitches about his v8 kit...

"Make your own"

[Boscolingus]

It seems thats what Loyde tells everyone to do, and with everyone bitching about headers over there - I can respect his desicion. Why supply a part if it's only going to be ripped apart by those who either can't afford it or can't see the value in it.

Forgive me, but if you can't afford every single aspect of your swap, then move on, don't ruin another Fiero with 2x4 engine mounts, RTV'ed coins to replace sensors and clothes dryer ducting as exhaust.

Perhaps Chris needs to start making an intake for the 2.8 that features piled on bird-shit pulse welds from a MIG and has al sorts of clearance issues, and would give a Smog Ref a reason to banish you from the state of CA. - People would be lining up to buy that with thier matching headers

[The Dark Side of Will]

Is this going in a technical direction or do I need to move it to RFTVTW?

[Boscolingus]

Naw, just was curious as far as port diameter of the 3800 SC exhaust vs. tubing diamter of the WCF headers? Where the claim of "too small" comes from

[The Dark Side of Will]

Who made said claim?

I think somebody with some calipers and a 3800 ought to be able to put that to bed.

Now if you want to get into a discussion about why EVERYTHING on the market calling itself a 3800 header sucks, then let's go for it.

[Boscolingus]

Rants in order.....

1. "They're too small...."

- The 3800 SC heads feature an exhaust port diameter in the neighborhood of 1 3/16", the WCF headers come standard with 1 1/2" primaries, and 1.65" is available. - BUSTED

2. "They're not equal length....."

- The primary function of these headers is to route the exhaust in the standard Fiero configuration without butchering up the trunk or sacrificing vital room in the engine bay. If you want equal length, do some math, take some measurements, and make your own. - BUSTED

3. "They're too expensive...."

- These are hand made to order on a dialy basis and designed specifically for an engine conversion for which no off the shelf parts from GM or any other publicly traded corporate entity exist. Instead of focusing on price, look at the value. - BUSTED

[The Dark Side of Will]

This is propaganda.
Moving to NTFD.

[Aaron]

They, like every other 3800 header made, are not good (At least not as good as they could be), but I can see their purpose.

I'm just amazed at how these get bashed, yet people won't shut up about how awesome FrancisT's shit is.

[jelly2m81]

I installed a set of WCF 3800 headers on a customers car, I can't say I was overlly impressed with them. I will say they seem to be big enough, the car made good power with those and very few bolt on mods.

The problem I had with them was that the crossover pipe did not line up with both headers with the headers bolted to the heads. We had to cut and realign the crossover pipe to mate up properly. The big dissapointment in this was these were the coated ones directly from WCF.

Also the headers were made from several short sections of pipe all welded together, there are sections where a single piece of pipe could have easly been used. The welds are, well..... shitty. They don't leak, but they look just that- like shit.

To be fair the quailty of the WCF 3800 headers I recieved are on par with Archis V8 adapter kit, and that is, It does what it is suspoed to do, but the quality could easily be better.

[Boscolingus]

Aaron & Jelly..

What are some suggestions for improving upon the product?


I just spent some time researching TOG's ( $750, come coated, but still mild steel ) ans the SLP's ( $699, come coated, still mild steel ) and when compared to the WCF headers ( Stainless for $795 - no need for coating ), the WCF units do provide a significant increase in value.

But like I said, what are some realistic suggestions? Now mind you, I prefer coming here and getting real world answers rather than a ghey flame fest I would receive over at Pffer. I do value your guys' opinion as I see the majority of the folks here as the one's who are actually "do-ers", rather than "readers" if ya kinda know what I mean.

Also I like the fact that ya don;t have to tip-toe around here

Will - sorry for the thread going off on a tangent

[Aaron]

Equal length with tuned dimensions, and V-band joints. There might be a set out there, but I haven't seen one yet.

[Boscolingus]

I hear "tuned" in reference to headers all of the time - can someone actually give me a definition of what this means?

[jelly2m81]

I'll see if I still have any pics of the headers I used, you can see for yourself what I ment about the bits of pipe and the welds.

I don't know if the set I got was a one off fugged up crossover or what, but it would be nice if they could be bolted up to an engine or buck before shipping to ensure they fit correctly. While me nor my customer didn't mind the reworking of the crossover pipe nothing terrible, it did ruin the ceramic coating in that section.

Personally my thoughts on equal length headers is that it would be nice, but it might add a whole lot of loss space in the engine bay, and more heat.
We dyno'd 270 Whp and 305 Wtorque with the headers and a pulley, and rockers on a "rough" PCM tune ( the engine ran lean after ~ 4000 RPM ) so I believe the current design is up to the task.

Personally If I was guaranteed a proper fit, and better quality assembly, I'd be happy to pay the asking price for another set. I really felt foolish showing other people the car at the shop and telling them the headers cost a grand looking the way they do.

Edit for pic of the welds, and you can see the short bits of pipe





I've seemed to have lost alot of these pics, ones showing the entire headers, but you can see what my point is.

[Aaron]

It means that the primary dimensions were chosen to improve upon the performance of the header, they weren't just chosen to make things easy or cheap (Like the 3800's header primaries are). Tuned primaries aid in scavaging, which actually "pulls" exhaust volume out of the cylinder. And the headers can do this at a certain rpm band, so you tune them for that RPM band. It is much like intake tuning, where you tune the runners on an intake to exaggerate a certain RPM range.

Most non-turbo tuned headers have primaries ranging between 25-40" primaries.

The headers I built for my old Z34 I used primary dimensions to optimize a 4,500-7,500 rpm range, and used 1 5/8" D and 30" lengths. The headers for my Fiero are made with a turbo in mind, so they use a relatively large D (1.75"), short length (20") primary.

Personally my thoughts on equal length headers is that it would be nice, but it might add a whole lot of loss space in the engine bay, and more heat.

Mine fit fine, and are easy to install and remove. I guess they take up space, but the space is otherwise useless, so why not? I can still get to everything I need to without a problem. As for the heat, so what? Engine's run hot, doesn't mean they're useless. If they are designed not to run near anything they can damage with the heat, then what's the problem? Furthermore, ceramic coatings and header wrap are an easy and cheap solution to keep heat inside the header if you are scared they might make the engine spontaneously combust.

We dyno'd 270 Whp and 305 Wtorque with the headers and a pulley, and rockers on a "rough" PCM tune ( the engine ran lean after ~ 4000 RPM ) so I believe the current design is up to the task.

And my Dad's LS1 will dyno 320whp with the factory iron logs. Doesn't change the fact that I'd gain 30+ more with some decent headers. You can't say anything about how bad or good those are until you have a good set to compare them to. Saying "I got this much power so they must be good" is ridiculous.

[Boscolingus]

Jelly,

Each and every header system is built on an assembled engine at WCF ( there are currently 4 different engine/drivetrain combos set up specifically for the headers ). If you were to scroll through the pics of the "WCF BBQ's" on www.fieroswest.org I'm sure you will come across the pics of them, I'd link them but it's late and theyre getting ready to close up shop here at the dealership.

I do, however, admit that the 3G and 5G passes on the tubes lack consistancy, however do have adequate penetration and overlap. As far as the fit, it may be possible that you fully secured each header before attaching the crossover, possible misalignment due to the coating process, but thats neither here nor there. I could spend all day making guesses at what happened, but would rather spend the time in executuon of improving the product.

I'm gonna add to this in a couple days, as well as touch upon a few things that Aaron pointed out - just gotta get outta here, they're lockin up

And happy turkey day!

[whipped]

CNC mandrel bends are your friend. Just have to weld at the flange and collector. Done.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I hear "tuned" in reference to headers all of the time - can someone actually give me a definition of what this means?

The primary length is chosen to work with exhaust valve duration in a given RPM range (and is the SAME for every cylinder), the primary diameter is chosen for the desired output per cylinder (based on average gas velocity). The collectors have the same tuning parameters (length & diameter) but aren't as easy to calculate a priori as primaries.

[Aaron]

Each and every header system is built on an assembled engine at WCF ( there are currently 4 different engine/drivetrain combos set up specifically for the headers ). If you were to scroll through the pics of the "WCF BBQ's" on www.fieroswest.org I'm sure you will come across the pics of them, I'd link them but it's late and theyre getting ready to close up shop here at the dealership.

My headers fit the crossover perfect, but then once ready to go on, I had a 1/8" gap in one of the connections. Turns out when I mocked it up, it was without gaskets, and the gaskets took up enough room to make the headers too far apart from each other by about 1/8".

When WCF mocks them up, do they do it with a gasket?