Would this getrag fit in a l67 swap do you think

[Series8217]

When I took The Mule to Deal's Gap, I was lower in the RPM range that I would have liked in 2nd gear on at least half the turns.

From what I've seen and heard of Deal's Gap, the 3.5/2.19 Getrag 282 ratios would be perfect for that place. On anything with longer straights or wider turns though, 3rd and 2nd are just too far apart...

[Aaron]

That's because it was a joke and you didn't understand it. :scratch:

I got it, it just isn't very funny when it is so blatantly wrong.

However, drag racing is best done with an automatic and is far from being the only use for a transmission. I would argue that most manual transmission enthusiasts want to do a lot more with their cars than drag race.

This is exactly what I'm saying. For what the car was aimed to do, most every FWD GM I've driven had great gearsets. Sure they weren't perfect, but each shift landed you very close to the start of the power band, and highway RPMs were great.

What does that mid 4's first gear become once you're moving? Extra dead weight and drivetrain mass because you can't use it again. Ever tried using first in either a 282 or a 284 on an AutoX course? The only time it's remotely useful is going around a pivot and even in that circumstance, you really have to nail the shift to get into it. When I took The Mule to Deal's Gap, I was lower in the RPM range that I would have liked in 2nd gear on at least half the turns.

The first stretched out to 35mph, which in my experience is pretty common on most 5-speed cars in this power range. Included is the Honda Accord 6-speed, and a few BMWs. And the ~35mph 1st gear was pretty pleasent on the Fiero and Z34. It was enough to easily and very smoothly take off from a light with very little clutch riding, it idled in gear very smoothly, and could for the most part adapt to traffic well. But then once you got on it, it pulled through, you hit 2nd, and find yourself right at the start of the next gear's power band. Not bad at all.

Not too many car owners are planning on taking their GM FWD 5-speed car into Deal's Gap for a highly aggressive driving exercise.

The T56 (LSX is slang for a specific engine family, not a transmission, BTW) has such ratios. First is in the mid 2's rather than the mid 3's or even mid 4's. The kicker is that GM didn't design the T56. Dodge originally spec'd it for the Viper and GM borrowed the box for the Vette and then F-body. GM can't even spec RWD transmissions anymore. Consider the Aisin AY6 (RPO: MV7) available in the '08 Cadillac CTS. It has a 4.155 first gear and a 2.513 second gear. Manual transmissions with 4:1 first gears belong in trucks, not cars that are supposed to be sporty. GM doesn't actually put any development effort into their manual transmission equipped cars. One of the big three car mags recently gave the manual transmission CTS a lower rating than the automatic transmission because the car as a whole wasn't as fully developed. GM treats manual transmissions like an afterthought or a box to check. They don't take them seriously, as evidenced by the fact that they just outright dropped the 6 speed manual from the G6 lineup. They don't take FWD performance seriously which is why they turned out nothing but FWD strut suspended automatic transmission blah boxes for almost two decades and found themselves in dire financial straits. Despite the fact that they've turned around a lot their lineup in terms of aesthetic and build quality, I still think they're a LONG way from "getting it" the way Honda and BMW do.

I know the LSX is an engine smartass. I used it because GM has used a few different transmissions for the LSX, all of which that I've driven were geared well for their application. GM may not have designed the T56, but they did control the ratios in them.

There is a reason GM, hell American in general, FWD performance isn't taken seriously--No one buys them. The only ones they can sell are to the RWD crowd, the ones interested in a performance car. No one cares about a FWD performance car, they don't sell when right next door you have a 345hp, 6-speed T-top Camaro for not very much more money. And to everyone that buys one, it's a grocery getter that can pass. Look at the Z34. Here's a Lumina, with a sweet (For the time), DOHC engine that'd pull their fastest Camaro, with a strong well-geared 5-speed, still made 29mpg, and they were just flying off the lots weren't they Will? Not really, they didn't sell for shit. Same story with the Berettas and Cavaliers. People don't buy a Cavalier to be a performance car to take to Deal's Gap.

They dropped the 6-speed G6 because no one was buying it, because the car isn't a performance car, it's a grocery getter. And John Doe's wife doesn't need or want a 6-speed grocery getter. The Accords are the same way. Honda and BMW both offer manual trannies on some of their grocery getters, but they still don't sell for shit. I know, I'm looking for a newer 6-speed Accord V6. And it's hard as hell to find, because no one bought them when they were new. The FWD market is dominated by the automatic transmission. Not because of the manufacturer's, but because of the buyers.

[Series8217]

:lamer:

[The Dark Side of Will]

FWD performance doesn't sell?
RSX type S and Integra GSR were sales bombs that were panned by automotive journalists, right? Just like the VW GTi and now the Rabbit 2.5 (2.5 turbo in a rabbit chassis... holy crap), original and new Mini (I barely have room to swing a dead cat in NoVA without hitting a Mini).

The Cobalt SS isn't bad, but it's not what it could be (although the turbo version is coming out this year...) and I hardly ever see any adverts for it... GM doesn't know how to treat a halo car, since they have so few of them. EVERYBODY should know how awesome it is.

The SRT-4 does what it does very well, but what it does is blow its tires off at the slightest provocation.

GM should court enthusiasts, but they're not. In EVERY area of life, those who feel most strongly are the voices that everyone hears. Enthusiasts could be GM's best source of free advertising if GM targetted cars toward enthusiasts. Instead of enthusiasts talking to their friends about how awesome the new Malibu is, we don't hear anything. Crickets. And GM's market share slips... and slips, because it's not obvious to Joe Average that GM gives a shit. It IS obvious to Joe Average that companies like BMW give a shit. A coworker of mine recently drove a couple of us to a meeting in another building and said of his E46 330Xi that he was test driving cars, but the first time he turned a corner in the Bimmer, he knew that was the car he was going to buy. Nobody ever said that about a Malibu, which arguably occupies the same place in GM's lineup as the 330Xi does in BMW's.

The idea that manual transmissions don't sell so effort should be concentrated elsewhere is a self-fulfilling prophesy. After thinking that thought, GM applies the automatic transmission design ideas to the stick shift model, ie Can any Grandmother drive it in San Francisco--nevermind that San Fran grandmothers buy automatics--and then market the car to enthusiasts. That's right, they design for grandmothers and market to enthusiasts. And then they wonder why the stickshift cars don't sell. The reason is that enthusiasts aren't stupid. They recognize that nobody put any particular amount of thought into making the stickshift car appeal to them, so they go buy one that does... like an Accord. A woman in my Navy Reserve unit drives a 4 cyl/5 spd Accord (most recent body style). She says she couldn't be happier with it and even if she had all the money in the world to spend on a car, she'd still get that one (although maybe the V6/6 spd instead). Nobody ever said that about a Malibu. She isn't even an "enthusiast" by the typical definition, but Honda made her enthusiastic for them because of the thought and care they put into the stickshift car. BMW made my coworker into an enthusiast for them. Ferrari is what it is because EVERYONE is an enthusiast for Ferrari. GM isn't courting any enthusiasts. They're just trying to build the car that offends as few people as possible in the hopes that it will sell... and then no one buys it because it doesn't stand for anything, it doesn't have any personality and no one in the market feels passionate about it because it's obvious that the company that built it isn't passionate about it.

So tell me again why designing cars to the lowest common denominator is a good thing.

[Series8217]

FWD performance doesn't sell?
RSX type S and Integra GSR were sales bombs that were panned by automotive journalists, right? Just like the VW GTi and now the Rabbit 2.5 (2.5 turbo in a rabbit chassis... holy crap), original and new Mini (I barely have room to swing a dead cat in NoVA without hitting a Mini).

The Cobalt SS isn't bad, but it's not what it could be (although the turbo version is coming out this year...) and I hardly ever see any adverts for it... GM doesn't know how to treat a halo car, since they have so few of them. EVERYBODY should know how awesome it is.

The SRT-4 does what it does very well, but what it does is blow its tires off at the slightest provocation.

GM should court enthusiasts, but they're not. In EVERY area of life, those who feel most strongly are the voices that everyone hears. Enthusiasts could be GM's best source of free advertising if GM targetted cars toward enthusiasts. Instead of enthusiasts talking to their friends about how awesome the new Malibu is, we don't hear anything. Crickets. And GM's market share slips... and slips, because it's not obvious to Joe Average that GM gives a shit. It IS obvious to Joe Average that companies like BMW give a shit. A coworker of mine recently drove a couple of us to a meeting in another building and said of his E46 330Xi that he was test driving cars, but the first time he turned a corner in the Bimmer, he knew that was the car he was going to buy. Nobody ever said that about a Malibu, which arguably occupies the same place in GM's lineup as the 330Xi does in BMW's.

The idea that manual transmissions don't sell so effort should be concentrated elsewhere is a self-fulfilling prophesy. After thinking that thought, GM applies the automatic transmission design ideas to the stick shift model, ie Can any Grandmother drive it in San Francisco--nevermind that San Fran grandmothers buy automatics--and then market the car to enthusiasts. That's right, they design for grandmothers and market to enthusiasts. And then they wonder why the stickshift cars don't sell. The reason is that enthusiasts aren't stupid. They recognize that nobody put any particular amount of thought into making the stickshift car appeal to them, so they go buy one that does... like an Accord. A woman in my Navy Reserve unit drives a 4 cyl/5 spd Accord (most recent body style). She says she couldn't be happier with it and even if she had all the money in the world to spend on a car, she'd still get that one (although maybe the V6/6 spd instead). Nobody ever said that about a Malibu. She isn't even an "enthusiast" by the typical definition, but Honda made her enthusiastic for them because of the thought and care they put into the stickshift car. BMW made my coworker into an enthusiast for them. Ferrari is what it is because EVERYONE is an enthusiast for Ferrari. GM isn't courting any enthusiasts. They're just trying to build the car that offends as few people as possible in the hopes that it will sell... and then no one buys it because it doesn't stand for anything, it doesn't have any personality and no one in the market feels passionate about it because it's obvious that the company that built it isn't passionate about it.

Well said. How about mailing that off to the higher ups at GM? Lutz might give it a read.

So tell me again why designing cars to the lowest common denominator is a good thing.

Give him time, he'll find a way.

[Fastback86]

That's because it was a joke and you didn't understand it. :scratch:

I got it, it just isn't very funny when it is so blatantly wrong.

However, drag racing is best done with an automatic and is far from being the only use for a transmission. I would argue that most manual transmission enthusiasts want to do a lot more with their cars than drag race.

This is exactly what I'm saying. For what the car was aimed to do, most every FWD GM I've driven had great gearsets. Sure they weren't perfect, but each shift landed you very close to the start of the power band, and highway RPMs were great.

What does that mid 4's first gear become once you're moving? Extra dead weight and drivetrain mass because you can't use it again. Ever tried using first in either a 282 or a 284 on an AutoX course? The only time it's remotely useful is going around a pivot and even in that circumstance, you really have to nail the shift to get into it. When I took The Mule to Deal's Gap, I was lower in the RPM range that I would have liked in 2nd gear on at least half the turns.

The first stretched out to 35mph, which in my experience is pretty common on most 5-speed cars in this power range. Included is the Honda Accord 6-speed, and a few BMWs. And the ~35mph 1st gear was pretty pleasent on the Fiero and Z34. It was enough to easily and very smoothly take off from a light with very little clutch riding, it idled in gear very smoothly, and could for the most part adapt to traffic well. But then once you got on it, it pulled through, you hit 2nd, and find yourself right at the start of the next gear's power band. Not bad at all.

Not too many car owners are planning on taking their GM FWD 5-speed car into Deal's Gap for a highly aggressive driving exercise.

The T56 (LSX is slang for a specific engine family, not a transmission, BTW) has such ratios. First is in the mid 2's rather than the mid 3's or even mid 4's. The kicker is that GM didn't design the T56. Dodge originally spec'd it for the Viper and GM borrowed the box for the Vette and then F-body. GM can't even spec RWD transmissions anymore. Consider the Aisin AY6 (RPO: MV7) available in the '08 Cadillac CTS. It has a 4.155 first gear and a 2.513 second gear. Manual transmissions with 4:1 first gears belong in trucks, not cars that are supposed to be sporty. GM doesn't actually put any development effort into their manual transmission equipped cars. One of the big three car mags recently gave the manual transmission CTS a lower rating than the automatic transmission because the car as a whole wasn't as fully developed. GM treats manual transmissions like an afterthought or a box to check. They don't take them seriously, as evidenced by the fact that they just outright dropped the 6 speed manual from the G6 lineup. They don't take FWD performance seriously which is why they turned out nothing but FWD strut suspended automatic transmission blah boxes for almost two decades and found themselves in dire financial straits. Despite the fact that they've turned around a lot their lineup in terms of aesthetic and build quality, I still think they're a LONG way from "getting it" the way Honda and BMW do.

I know the LSX is an engine smartass. I used it because GM has used a few different transmissions for the LSX, all of which that I've driven were geared well for their application. GM may not have designed the T56, but they did control the ratios in them.

There is a reason GM, hell American in general, FWD performance isn't taken seriously--No one buys them. The only ones they can sell are to the RWD crowd, the ones interested in a performance car. No one cares about a FWD performance car, they don't sell when right next door you have a 345hp, 6-speed T-top Camaro for not very much more money. And to everyone that buys one, it's a grocery getter that can pass. Look at the Z34. Here's a Lumina, with a sweet (For the time), DOHC engine that'd pull their fastest Camaro, with a strong well-geared 5-speed, still made 29mpg, and they were just flying off the lots weren't they Will? Not really, they didn't sell for shit. Same story with the Berettas and Cavaliers. People don't buy a Cavalier to be a performance car to take to Deal's Gap.

They dropped the 6-speed G6 because no one was buying it, because the car isn't a performance car, it's a grocery getter. And John Doe's wife doesn't need or want a 6-speed grocery getter. The Accords are the same way. Honda and BMW both offer manual trannies on some of their grocery getters, but they still don't sell for shit. I know, I'm looking for a newer 6-speed Accord V6. And it's hard as hell to find, because no one bought them when they were new. The FWD market is dominated by the automatic transmission. Not because of the manufacturer's, but because of the buyers.

Give me a fucking break. It was an obvious joke, and frankly, it's not that far from wrong. Doesn't even matter if it was wrong, because its a damn JOKE.

No one buys American FWD performance cars (other than the SRT-4, Focus SVT and Cobalt SS) because American car companies took their sweet ass time getting around to joining the market. They offered shit cars until it was painfully obvious that tuner Hondas weren't going away, then tried to get into the game with too little, too late. With the kind of aftermarket support Honda has, who's gonna defect to Ford or GM?

And btw, if the Camaro was such a hot piece of ass, why did it get shit canned for 7 years? Oh right, because no one was buying them.

[Fastback86]

FWD performance doesn't sell?
RSX type S and Integra GSR were sales bombs that were panned by automotive journalists, right? Just like the VW GTi and now the Rabbit 2.5 (2.5 turbo in a rabbit chassis... holy crap), original and new Mini (I barely have room to swing a dead cat in NoVA without hitting a Mini).

The Cobalt SS isn't bad, but it's not what it could be (although the turbo version is coming out this year...) and I hardly ever see any adverts for it... GM doesn't know how to treat a halo car, since they have so few of them. EVERYBODY should know how awesome it is.

The SRT-4 does what it does very well, but what it does is blow its tires off at the slightest provocation.

GM should court enthusiasts, but they're not. In EVERY area of life, those who feel most strongly are the voices that everyone hears. Enthusiasts could be GM's best source of free advertising if GM targetted cars toward enthusiasts. Instead of enthusiasts talking to their friends about how awesome the new Malibu is, we don't hear anything. Crickets. And GM's market share slips... and slips, because it's not obvious to Joe Average that GM gives a shit. It IS obvious to Joe Average that companies like BMW give a shit. A coworker of mine recently drove a couple of us to a meeting in another building and said of his E46 330Xi that he was test driving cars, but the first time he turned a corner in the Bimmer, he knew that was the car he was going to buy. Nobody ever said that about a Malibu, which arguably occupies the same place in GM's lineup as the 330Xi does in BMW's.

The idea that manual transmissions don't sell so effort should be concentrated elsewhere is a self-fulfilling prophesy. After thinking that thought, GM applies the automatic transmission design ideas to the stick shift model, ie Can any Grandmother drive it in San Francisco--nevermind that San Fran grandmothers buy automatics--and then market the car to enthusiasts. That's right, they design for grandmothers and market to enthusiasts. And then they wonder why the stickshift cars don't sell. The reason is that enthusiasts aren't stupid. They recognize that nobody put any particular amount of thought into making the stickshift car appeal to them, so they go buy one that does... like an Accord. A woman in my Navy Reserve unit drives a 4 cyl/5 spd Accord (most recent body style). She says she couldn't be happier with it and even if she had all the money in the world to spend on a car, she'd still get that one (although maybe the V6/6 spd instead). Nobody ever said that about a Malibu. She isn't even an "enthusiast" by the typical definition, but Honda made her enthusiastic for them because of the thought and care they put into the stickshift car. BMW made my coworker into an enthusiast for them. Ferrari is what it is because EVERYONE is an enthusiast for Ferrari. GM isn't courting any enthusiasts. They're just trying to build the car that offends as few people as possible in the hopes that it will sell... and then no one buys it because it doesn't stand for anything, it doesn't have any personality and no one in the market feels passionate about it because it's obvious that the company that built it isn't passionate about it.

Bravo. That's two killer posts in a row for Will.

So tell me again why designing cars to the lowest common denominator is a good thing.

Because as far as GM is concerned, if they're doing better than Ford and Chrysler, they must be doing it right.

***Note to Aaron: That was also a joke.

[p8ntman442]

Gm is marketing to enthusiasts. They see the word enthusiast as something different. You can see that they will be doing well in 10 years, as they are really bringing The caddilac name around, and dropped off OLDS. As the Baby Boomers hit, and buy their retirement car, they now want something exciting, like their dads chevrolet they lost their virginity in. GM is marketing the Family car to older family members who control the $$$. While Im not saying Will is wrong, Im trying to show how I see their plan. The entire market got flooded with crap knock offs lately, Bringing back old muscle car names to sell. Too soon in my opinion. 10 years from now, retro muscle would have done well.

[The Dark Side of Will]

When I took The Mule to Deal's Gap, I was lower in the RPM range that I would have liked in 2nd gear on at least half the turns.

From what I've seen and heard of Deal's Gap, the 3.5/2.19 Getrag 282 ratios would be perfect for that place. On anything with longer straights or wider turns though, 3rd and 2nd are just too far apart...

I'd like to try a 284. It has 3.46/2.28 with a 3.67 final.

[Atilla the Fun]

3.46/2.28 and 3.67:1 is a slight improvement, but what's fifth, and what does it come in?

[The Dark Side of Will]

Fifth is 0.72ish and the trans was used in 91-93 Lumina Z34, Grand Prix GTP and Olds Cutlass Supreme. It was ONLY used with the 3.4 TDC engine (and the 2.2 turbo in the Chrysler TC by Maserati, but that's another story).

[Series8217]

I believe the internals on the Maserati version are the same.
It's just a different bellhousing half and maybe side gears for the axle splines, but I somewhat doubt that.
I've heard of people getting 3.4 DOHC 284 parts to swap into their Maserati TC trans when they need parts..

[Aaron]

I'd like to try a 284. It has 3.46/2.28 with a 3.67 final.

It was a fun tranny with a good gear spread, for the power the engine made, dare I say it was perfect. Beautiful 1st and 2nd, and a nice 5th as well. And I know this has little to do with the tranny, but the feel and the throws were also really nice.

[darkhorizon]

I wish I could turn off aarons posts.

[Series8217]

I wish I could turn off aarons posts.

You can!

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