Fuel economy vs gas prices

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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The Dark Side of Will
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Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Kohburn wrote:lol - woops

i thought low end high end was more of cam overlap than both advancing or retarding.
Whole cam advance/retard is a subtle adjustment to powerband.

According to Vizard, cam overlap (measured in degree-inches of area on a lift plot) primary affects the "shape" and "fullness" of a torque curve and varies with the relationship of cylinder size to head flow. High flow heads with small cylinders make a good torque curve with less overlap than more restrictive heads or bigger cylinders. That sort of makes sense, because overlap controls the amount of exhaust/intake interaction, which is less necessary with higher relationship of head flow to cylinder size.

Duration is more what affects the RPM range of the powerband.
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Post by teamlseep13 »

Most race engines that are using a full coated combustion chamber are using a fuel boils at below 0F and have octane rating of over 100, so detonation isn't a problem for them.
Will, I would coat your pistons and leave it for now. Then like you said, pull heads and coat for experimental purposes, at least you will be able to have some kind of test that way.
1988 Pontiac Fiero

Ecotec swap taking much too long...
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Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Yeah, I'd like to try something I'm pretty sure will work and then sneak up on a more aggressive setup until I have problems.
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Post by Atilla the Fun »

I'm back from my bad ankle, so here's my take. In order of posting: Yes, if the air outside the foam coffee cup was 212, then the foam would. Where on this planet is it that hot in the summer? Next, I'm not sold on coating forged pistons because it does affect the expansion, and you can ruin forged pistons with too long of a piston warmup. Pistons will rock at TDC until the crown gets warm. You could jam a piston and break rings if you got full boost with cold pistons. I've seen this and worse, from drivers who knew better.
If it's a choice, I'd do the heads instead of the pistons, partly because of my beliefs, and partly to protect my claim of never having had one of my engines fail.
As to the cam advance/retard, advancing will build cylinder pressure, increasing DCR, at lower RPM. You can in fact check this with a simple compression tester, if you're moving a SBC cam like 4 degrees. 1 degree you won't see. I like all my cams installed 2 degrees retarded from wherever they were ground at (in SBC) as the later intake closing builds more top end, and the later exhaust opening holds the pressure longer.
For example: my '91 camaro 305 was rated 170 hp @ 4000 rpm. I spun it to 6200 rpm time after time, in First gear. Then I replaced the worn out timing chain with a new one from GM, and it wouldn't pull past 4500. I made no other changes. I couldn't feel a bit more low-rpm torque.
As for the high-rpm ignition retard, this isn't just a SBC thing. It's more helpful with modern heads than old smog heads. What the net effect is: it gives the engine another 500 useable rpm, and you can check that with Steve Cole of The Turbo Shop. Mostly, the high-rpm spark retard doesn't help much below the engine's horsepower peak. Say your 350 mkes 350 hp at5200-5400 rpm. You would have no retard at 5200, but you would by 5400. Maybe only 2 degrees at that point. Also, retard here doesn't mean from Top Dead Center, it meand from the say 32 or more degrees total. So in this example, 32 degrees at 5200, 30 degrees at 5400. Why this is this way, I can't say, but I can understand that it does work that way. Some engines would want 2 degrees of retard from hp peak to redline, some would want more at redline. I have spent way too many hours playing with spark advance on SBCs.
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Post by Atilla the Fun »

P.S. retarding the cam should reduce detonation. As should retarding the spark timing.
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Post by Atilla the Fun »

coating the heads will affect their rate of expansion to be more like the iron block.
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Post by The Dark Side of Will »

You mean that the coatings will keep the cylinder head temps down so that the heads don't expand more than the block?

I'm still planning to run iron heads.

Traditional views of changing cam advance/retard implicitly assume that cam phasing doesn't change while the engine is running. Traditional views look at cam phasing effects on the engine at WOT at varying RPM.

My take on cam phasing, now that we have devices capable of changing it on the fly, is that it should be varied by MANIFOLD PRESSURE, not RPM. If a 5.3, for example, were set up with 12:1 static compression and the factory cam (or maybe one only a little bigger), if probably wouldn't get to WOT on pump gas without detonation.

However, there would be a max manifold pressure that could be run without detonation for any given cam phasing position.

So at light throttle and low MAP, the cam would be run very advanced to run very high dynamic compression. Because this happens at low MAP, the resulting chamber energy shouldn't exceed the engine's detonation threshold. As the throttle advanced and the MAP rose, the controller would retard the cam phasing and reduce DCR so that the engine could run without detonation.

This operation scheme would probably give up some power to a lower compression engine that could run cam phasing optimal for power at all throttle positions, but that's fine. When I thought up that scheme, I was looking for efficiency, not power.
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Post by teamlseep13 »

I am sure you know this, but the main reason GM did the variable cam phasing on the V8's was to help pass emissions standards while making more power than the earlier engines, as well as help interface with the DoD system.
I would agree that playing with the phasing to change the DCR would be fun though. It would be cake too, the whole system is so simple most 5 year olds could understand how to work it.
Do have to remember though that even if the MAP is low, on a really hot engine, detonation may rear its ugly head anyway from a heat soaked combustion chamber despite the fact that load and TP angle is low. Sure dumping a bunch of EGR could help combat that but thats just a bandaid.
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Ecotec swap taking much too long...
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Post by Atilla the Fun »

Oh yeah. I was thinking of aluminum heads for some reason. With iron, I'd try just polishing the chambers and exhaust ports with progressively finer grit tootsie rolls. but then if you do pull them for coating, you'll need to get a coarse grit and unpolish. As for the cam phasing, I'm with you so far. But it seems to me it would be better to get the first-year 6.0 iron heads and put those on an LS3 for your initial experiments, IMHO.
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Post by The Dark Side of Will »

teamlseep13 wrote:I am sure you know this, but the main reason GM did the variable cam phasing on the V8's was to help pass emissions standards while making more power than the earlier engines, as well as help interface with the DoD system.
I would agree that playing with the phasing to change the DCR would be fun though. It would be cake too, the whole system is so simple most 5 year olds could understand how to work it.
Do have to remember though that even if the MAP is low, on a really hot engine, detonation may rear its ugly head anyway from a heat soaked combustion chamber despite the fact that load and TP angle is low. Sure dumping a bunch of EGR could help combat that but thats just a bandaid.
I understand GM's after emissions and power. I'm after thermal efficiency, pure and simple. In fact, it may be MORE difficult to get the engine I outlined above to pass emissions because the high chamber pressures and temps are more likely to produce oxides of N and other weird things.
Obviously there would have to be temp compensation for the compression, just like there's temp compensation for spark timing, cold start modifiers for fuel, etc.

If we can cool it appropriately, a LOT of EGR might not be a bad idea. Diesels have the efficiency they do partly because of high compression ratio, but also partly because they don't have pumping losses the way a gasoline engine does.
EGR reduces pumping losses by increasing manifold pressure. If the exhaust is almost completely recirculated at idle, the gasoline engine could run like a diesel. Getting rid of the exhaust heat is the tough part, though.
The FWD Northstars cool the EGR gasses by running them through the water manifold on the back of the engine. The volume of gas that this would require would be MUCH greater, however.
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Post by Atilla the Fun »

Your solution is external EGR. Fortunately, the parts you need already exist. It would be a simple matter to cut the tube, and run more past the front of the radiator, making the path about 6-7 feet long instead of 1 foot long. As for the coolant, I've always found benefit from RedLine's Water Wetter in the summer. Royal Purple has something similar. As for thermal efficiency, I'd say coated flattop pistons, coated chambers, and the latest exhaust opening that will get you the power level you're after. I'd really like to get into a discussion on your cam specs. How about it?
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Post by Nashco »

You could always use an EGR cooler off a diesel...they look pretty cool, very black box looking if you don't know what an EGR cooler is/does. :)

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Post by Atilla the Fun »

What diesel? My '83 Chev diesel has EGR but no cooler for it. Will might need to know what they were offered on, and I'm just plain curious now.
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Post by Nashco »

Pretty much any modern diesel has an EGR cooler, they run copious amounts of EGR for emissions and efficiency reasons. It's essentially an air:water heat exchanger, uses engine coolant to cool the exhaust and passes the heat off to the radiator.

Diesels have come a *looooooong* way since the early 80s. Loooooong way. :thumbleft:

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Post by Atilla the Fun »

No, they've gone TOO far. The '94 Cummins was far enough. Anything newer can't be swapped into my truck. The whole point of diesel is economy. Spending like 5 grand for an engine kinda kills that. Shame I can't plug a programmer into my 6.2 and have 700 ft-lbs, but now I'm way off topic. Sorry!
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Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Modern diesels are AWESOME. Diesel clatter is the Ferarri wail of the future. The common rail turbo diesel with ECM controlled boost finally brought diesels into the EFI age.

I think I've said that it would be sweet to build a Factory Five GTM with a Duramax...

If there were any mid-size diesels in this country that were worth a dam, I'd have one in a Fiero.
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Post by Atilla the Fun »

You're in luck. GM is releasing a baby duramax that is the same size as the LS1, so it can fit in anything an LS1 fits into. They sorta switched the flow around, the exhaust ports are where the intakes have been, and the intake ports are where the exhaust ports have been. I think they also changed the bank angle from 90 degrees to maybe 72, and I think there is a turbo sitting up top. I'd imagine you'd need a 4T80E.
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Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I've heard about that. I've also heard that it's going to start off in Suburbans.

Why on earth can GM not fit a 6.6 Duramax + 4L85E or Allison or whatever transmission they use with the thing into Suburbans is beyond me. The chassis is the same as the pickup trucks'...

Would be hilarious to build a diesel Vette and run 9's or 10's.
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Post by Aaron »

I bet they can fit it, and that'd be one beast of a Suburban.

GM was on a big kick a year ago on "Why gas?" They did all kinds of press releases and stuff on why their big displacement Vortec (What was it an 8.0 or 8.1?) was so much better than the diesel alternatives. They actually sent people a free coffee mug if you watched a video, and being I cheap college student, I jumped at the chance.

Maybe they simply don't make as much money on a Duramax than they do the Vortec V8. The transmission is outsourced, whereas on the gasoline engine GM makes the tranny. Just an idea...
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Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Isuzu builds the Duramax.
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