Health Insurance is a dripping load of Aids-monkey spunk.

[EBSB52]

Hey Eb, I was going to go in for my yearly checkup. How about sending me a check to cover my exam costs?

No, but how about giving yourself a prostate exam to save money. :knob:

This idiocy of 1 person paying for another is pathetic and further explains why there is an age requirment to be a leader. Child, go back and address the 1840 debt thinky I posted. We will never be out of debt most likely and I don't see the debt your party constructed for us to even fall below 10T once it flies thru at teh end of your guy's term.

This is not about 1 person getting medical aid and another writing a check as your simpleton mind cares to create.

When we place corporate profit above the people's health we are Fascist.... these things aren't discovered and labeled until after an event that shakes things up, as with WWII, the Great Depression and many other events. The world will retrospect a lot of bad things of the US after an event that will certainly happen in the next couple decades.

[EBSB52]

I wonder if something as simple as requiring medical service providers which are now corporations to be non-profit organizations would help...

would probably also help protect them from the huge fines associated with frivolous law suits

Yea, I say immunize all hospitals and doctors, that way we can compete with medical care quaility like 3rd world countries. Meanwile, we can still overcharge and underprovide, except for the rich.... they always won here in the US while the moronic poor continue to elect dictators.

[Mach10]

Shaun et al:

There's a critical concept that you are completely and utterly missing.

The REALITY is that the US has been using that very system--albeight a twisted version--for decades.

Why is it, do you think, that company co-pays are so cheap?

It's because everyone in the company is shoring up the [insurance]investment for everyone within the plan. Everyone paying for everyone is ALWAYS cheaper than individual payments. The premiums change over time. Fact is that if a bunch of people in a mid-sized company get huge bills, then the payments will go up.

The big difference is that Canada does it on a larger scale.

[Kohburn]

When we place corporate profit above the people's health we are Fascist.... these things aren't discovered and labeled until after an event that shakes things up, as with WWII, the Great Depression and many other events. The world will retrospect a lot of bad things of the US after an event that will certainly happen in the next couple decades.

thats capitalism, greed, materialism, and human imorality... don't really see how it is fascism, doesn't fit the definition.

[Shaun41178(2)]

The big difference is that Canada does it on a larger scale.

And you pay twice as much in taxes a year as I do too. Sorry but I would rather pay my $30/mnth for insurance then double what my current taxes are.

I don't get it Eb. Its ok for you to ask me to pay your medical bills, but I can't ask you? And your only excuse is because you are older and thats why young people shouldn't be in office?

Sorry asshole but I don't owe you shit. Noone else does either!! Especially for the specific reason of being older then me.

Thats one problem with this country. Old people think they are owed something by the younger generations.

And I don't want to hear about how well older people run this govt. Old people have been running this country into the ground in washington. Look at social security. I am paying into it, but its the older congressmen like you Eb, who keep stealing from it to pay someone or something else. Its not the younger generation in power in congress stealing this money is it? No its your generation. Yet you expect me to fix it, yet you don't want me in power to be able to do so. Yea makes sense.

[EBSB52]

When we place corporate profit above the people's health we are Fascist.... these things aren't discovered and labeled until after an event that shakes things up, as with WWII, the Great Depression and many other events. The world will retrospect a lot of bad things of the US after an event that will certainly happen in the next couple decades.

thats capitalism, greed, materialism, and human imorality... don't really see how it is fascism, doesn't fit the definition.

Neo-Fascism is obviously a maturation of conventional Mussolini Fascism, just as conservatism matured into neo-conservatism.

Neo-fascism has less totalitarianism and more corporatism. Corporatism is where corporations write the laws and govern, rather than typical representative Democracy. Since the Reagan era we have become very Corporatist, examples of this can be found with insurance laws, seat belt laws, tax laws for the rich, corporate mergers like we've never seen.

So the gross profit fits the neo-fascist model very well. Do you think corporations are behind HMO BS? Mandatory seat belts; why? Why they licked Ronnie’s cock to push that shit thru. OF course these are state laws that the feds, “supportâ€

[EBSB52]

The big difference is that Canada does it on a larger scale.

And you pay twice as much in taxes a year as I do too. Sorry but I would rather pay my $30/mnth for insurance then double what my current taxes are.

I don't get it Eb. Its ok for you to ask me to pay your medical bills, but I can't ask you? And your only excuse is because you are older and thats why young people shouldn't be in office?

Sorry asshole but I don't owe you shit. Noone else does either!! Especially for the specific reason of being older then me.

Thats one problem with this country. Old people think they are owed something by the younger generations.

And I don't want to hear about how well older people run this govt. Old people have been running this country into the ground in washington. Look at social security. I am paying into it, but its the older congressmen like you Eb, who keep stealing from it to pay someone or something else. Its not the younger generation in power in congress stealing this money is it? No its your generation. Yet you expect me to fix it, yet you don't want me in power to be able to do so. Yea makes sense.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>And you pay twice as much in taxes a year as I do too. Sorry but I would rather pay my $30/mnth for insurance then double what my current taxes are.


Cost, however you tabulate it, is only 1/2 the equation, how about services? Your pathetic HMO is trash, whereas Mach's in complete and comprehensive. Your HMO is constantly looking for ways to deny you or tack on charges, Soc med just delivers.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I don't get it Eb. Its ok for you to ask me to pay your medical bills, but I can't ask you? And your only excuse is because you are older and thats why young people shouldn't be in office?


That's about a convoluted POS. 1 at a time, take a Ritalin.

1) I want all Americans to have basic health insurance regardless of age.

2) Where did I say that you shouldn’t have government guaranteed heath coverage?

3) Young people should not be in office, as they can't relate to ALL life anomalies. That's not to say that all or most older people have it figured out or that young people can't make great leaders, I've seen examples of both. But you will see as you age that your paradigm changes and you have less harsh attitudes about societal issues. Would you rather be pulled over by a young cop or an older one?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sorry asshole but I don't owe you shit. No one else does either!! Especially for the specific reason of being older then me.

Anus, anus, didn't you read about us being a debtor nation since 1840? We're not paying as we go, we're on a giant credit card with YOUR party being responsible for at least 75% of it. I understand that you can't grasp that concept, but that's why I refer to what I wrote about young people in politics.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thats one problem with this country. Old people think they are owed something by the younger generations.

That's funny, that sounds like a statement made by an old person. But I see you've bought into the BS of dissention that the machine wants you to, I want all Americans to have med coverage.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>And I don't want to hear about how well older people run this govt. Old people have been running this country into the ground in washington.

But enough about your party.... you’ll keep foolishly voting that way.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Look at social security. I am paying into it, but its the older congressmen like you Eb, who keep stealing from it to pay someone or something else.


I'm not an old congressman...... how dare you :scratch: :blah5: Give examples of this stealing if you can, and don't worry, you'll be saying the same things when you're ~ my age.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Its not the younger generation in power in congress stealing this money is it? No its your generation. Yet you expect me to fix it, yet you don't want me in power to be able to do so. Yea makes sense


Where did I ask you to fix anything? I don’t want any kid in power, not to say the elders have it right either, but kids don't have the perspective to understand complex issues. This, 'Mad Max - live at your own risk' model that most members here have drawn up evidences that.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Of course capitalism, greed, materialism, and human imorality are also elements of fascism and general Republicanism.

Because no liberal or democrat EVER exhibited ANY of those traits. :scratch: :bootyshake:

[EBSB52]

Of course capitalism, greed, materialism, and human imorality are also elements of fascism and general Republicanism.

Because no liberal or democrat EVER exhibited ANY of those traits. :scratch: :bootyshake:

THat was more sacasm than anything, but currently, yea, I say the R's hold the throne for those. You know as well as I that the parties take turns being corrupt, but over the last 50 years each party has its norm:

Dems: sex scandals

Reps: money scandals, election scandals

Now there has been a new twist in that Repubs have been caught in sex scandals, evem gay sex scandals. Hell, if the voters are stupid enough to continue to elect them, just keep pushing the envelope.

[Mach10]

The big difference is that Canada does it on a larger scale.

And you pay twice as much in taxes a year as I do too. Sorry but I would rather pay my $30/mnth for insurance then double what my current taxes are.

Either you pay it to the government, or you pay it to your HMO. Your $30/mo insurance doesn't cover you for beans. Looks great on paper until you or yours gets very, very ill--then you'll find out how poor the coverage really is. I'm not trying to be a dick--just realistic. Fact of the matter is if life continues for you the way it is, you'll be absolutely fine... For me, I'd rather cough up a little more (3% more of my income by my estimate?) for the security in knowing that if something really bad happens, I'm not hopelessly boned.

I don't get it Eb. Its ok for you to ask me to pay your medical bills, but I can't ask you? And your only excuse is because you are older and thats why young people shouldn't be in office?

I don't see him as saying that at all. Socialized medicine in Canada isn't perfect by any stretch, and it could certainly use a coat of paint and some new drapes here and there, but overall, the socialized system on average costs the taxpayers significantly less than going private. It isn't you paying for Ebs, or ebs paying for you; it's everyone paying for everyone.

If you look at the balance sheet of government expenditures for our income taxes, Healthcare transfers make up less than 30% of our tax bill.

In other words, I'm paying on average $50 per month for healthcare that blows your co-pay out of the water.

If I was richer, yeah, I'd pay more, and if I didn't make as much, I'd pay less. The end result is that the burden of this setup is borne by every man woman and child--but only according to their means.

It's not perfect, but it does make the most sense.

[Kohburn]

i'll leave the comparison of actual coverage to the people I know who have lived in both canada and the US - and the ones I know hated canadian health care, and are vehimantly against socialized healthcare in the US. If canadian healthcare was so great why do Canadians come to america and pay cash for major surgeries etc.

neither system works that well. neither one should be the model for the other one to move towards.

this article covers a lot of the issues that i agree with.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0409g.asp

[EBSB52]

i'll leave the comparison of actual coverage to the people I know who have lived in both canada and the US - and the ones I know hated canadian health care, and are vehimantly against socialized healthcare in the US. If canadian healthcare was so great why do Canadians come to america and pay cash for major surgeries etc.

neither system works that well. neither one should be the model for the other one to move towards.

this article covers a lot of the issues that i agree with.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0409g.asp

There's a straight-shooting Candaian guy at work and I just asked him about the healthcare. He said dental is not included but everything else is. He gave reference to his wifes apendix bursting here in the US under his HMO and said he still paid out the ass, but if he didn't have the HMO that it would have cost him 40k. He said he wished he were back home when it happen cause it would obviously been handled right away and been 100% paid for.

I asked him about timeliness and he said if it were chronic issues it could take a little while to get seen, but you would eventually. He said if it were emergency that you would be seen right away. People come here to the US just for speedy service.

He said the differences to the systems is that you get seen faster here, vs pay out the ass here; same great quality. He wasn't a US basher either and when I asked why he would want to live/work in such a POS country he said it has its points but that he will probably go back. I was bashing the US, he was not at all - he was totally objective.

I think to worry about them modeling us or vice versa is ridiculous when a country's health is in the balance. We need healthcare now, worry about the design later.

UNLV and Harvard did a bankruuptcy research in 2004. There were 1.5M BK's in 2004 and 51% were due to medical bills. Why would the slimy US gov react like they did with the new BK laws considering over half were due to medical needs? Why no exception to the laws for medical MK's? Thats what Hillary wanted, but the other side, the fucking maggots were in power accross the board, so how can I be shocked?

[EBSB52]

The big difference is that Canada does it on a larger scale.

And you pay twice as much in taxes a year as I do too. Sorry but I would rather pay my $30/mnth for insurance then double what my current taxes are.

Either you pay it to the government, or you pay it to your HMO. Your $30/mo insurance doesn't cover you for beans. Looks great on paper until you or yours gets very, very ill--then you'll find out how poor the coverage really is. I'm not trying to be a dick--just realistic. Fact of the matter is if life continues for you the way it is, you'll be absolutely fine... For me, I'd rather cough up a little more (3% more of my income by my estimate?) for the security in knowing that if something really bad happens, I'm not hopelessly boned.

I don't get it Eb. Its ok for you to ask me to pay your medical bills, but I can't ask you? And your only excuse is because you are older and thats why young people shouldn't be in office?

I don't see him as saying that at all. Socialized medicine in Canada isn't perfect by any stretch, and it could certainly use a coat of paint and some new drapes here and there, but overall, the socialized system on average costs the taxpayers significantly less than going private. It isn't you paying for Ebs, or ebs paying for you; it's everyone paying for everyone.

If you look at the balance sheet of government expenditures for our income taxes, Healthcare transfers make up less than 30% of our tax bill.

In other words, I'm paying on average $50 per month for healthcare that blows your co-pay out of the water.

If I was richer, yeah, I'd pay more, and if I didn't make as much, I'd pay less. The end result is that the burden of this setup is borne by every man woman and child--but only according to their means.

It's not perfect, but it does make the most sense.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm not trying to be a dick--just realistic.

Why disclaim when telling the truth. Funny how arrogant American require an apology when revealing their fucked up country.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>For me, I'd rather cough up a little more (3% more of my income by my estimate?) for the security in knowing that if something really bad happens, I'm not hopelessly boned.

Right, this fallacy that our taxes are so low is a joke. Services rendered vs taxes paid, hell, US taxpayers are waaaaaaaaaay behind the 8 ball. That is, unless, you feel that watching the US match the world dollar for dollar in military spending has some value, cause that's where the taxpayers spending is going, 500+B per year, not counting Bush's semi-annual 120+B gifts to Haliburton and friends.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I don't see him as saying that at all. Socialized medicine in Canada isn't perfect by any stretch, and it could certainly use a coat of paint and some new drapes here and there, but overall, the socialized system on average costs the taxpayers significantly less than going private. It isn't you paying for Ebs, or ebs paying for you; it's everyone paying for everyone.

That's pure misdiection with the, "I'm not paying for that SOB" rhetoric. And the fact is, the US has been on an ugly bottomless crediot card for almost 200 years anyway, so it doesn't really matter. It's funny to hear the cut tax-n-endlessly spend Republicans cry about more spending. Ntice you never hear em cry about some 100+ billion dollar military funding....really have their priorities in line.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If I was richer, yeah, I'd pay more, and if I didn't make as much, I'd pay less. The end result is that the burden of this setup is borne by every man woman and child--but only according to their means.

Are you saying the health of a country supercedes greed? WHat a concept.

[Mach10]

Why disclaim when telling the truth. Funny how arrogant American require an apology when revealing their fucked up country.

Because it's not a discussion if you aren't polite--it's an argument. This is why you can talk politics to a person in a cafe and not end up on the French Diet, while most internet "discussions" rapidly fall apart.

You can't make a person see your point of view if you are trying to bludgeon them with it; you'll only put your back up.

If you want someone to consider your opinion (not the same as agreeing with you), little honey goes a long way towards making you sound like less of an opinionated asshole and having your comments dismissed out of hand.

Right, this fallacy that our taxes are so low is a joke. Services rendered vs taxes paid, hell, US taxpayers are waaaaaaaaaay behind the 8 ball. That is, unless, you feel that watching the US match the world dollar for dollar in military spending has some value, cause that's where the taxpayers spending is going, 500+B per year, not counting Bush's semi-annual 120+B gifts to Haliburton and friends.

I agree here.
This bit is important. Canadians don't have an overwhelming tax burden; given the level of funding per capita towards medical, education, and such, we really aren't badly off.

By comparison, the only things the US seem to get right in their spending patterns are the roads. The subject of military spending is a completely different topic.

That's pure misdiection with the, "I'm not paying for that SOB" rhetoric. And the fact is, the US has been on an ugly bottomless crediot card for almost 200 years anyway, so it doesn't really matter. It's funny to hear the cut tax-n-endlessly spend Republicans cry about more spending. Ntice you never hear em cry about some 100+ billion dollar military funding....really have their priorities in line.

It's actually a neat system if you look at it objectively. "I promise to pay you back, if you promise not to collect it."

Sheer genius!

Are you saying the health of a country supercedes greed? WHat a concept.

I guess what I'm saying is that this American fear of Socialism is misplaced and hypocritical.

Hypocritical because Americans partake of socialized services daily for other, less visible parts of their lives

Misplaced because It's founded mostly on a completely misguided and ignorant understanding of Communism. The main difference between communism and socialism is that socialism works just dandy. There are any number of financially and functionally succesful Co-operatives running in the US--each of which is based on sound principles of socialism.

[Mach10]

i'll leave the comparison of actual coverage to the people I know who have lived in both canada and the US - and the ones I know hated canadian health care, and are vehimantly against socialized healthcare in the US. If canadian healthcare was so great why do Canadians come to america and pay cash for major surgeries etc.

I don't think your friends understand either system very well.

Canada's healthcare WILL pay for non-elective surgery in the US, provided that the service is not offered locally. It will NOT automatically pay for experimental procedures.

Usually, Canadians heading south aren't going south because they prefer the treatment, they usually head south because they are seeing a very specific specialist or surgical team.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these folks you know are from Alberta. Alberta's healthcare system is in crisis because the conservative governments have been stripping funding out of it for years, and trying to "replace" the lost services with semi-private facilities. The end result is an administrative nightmare that just stinks on ice. You can't have it both ways.

neither system works that well. neither one should be the model for the other one to move towards.

I disagree; our system works well. It's not perfect, and there is a large amount of administrative overhead that needs to be trimmed, but it gets the job done in 99.999% of cases.

There are misses as in any system, but the "evidence" for them in most publications is anecdotal at best.