That's interesting, I was expecting grooves machined into the ball or something, but I guess any rod end could be turned into a greasable one pretty easily.Series8217 wrote:The rod ends are greased through the shank. I have not seen these available commercially. It looks like Out-Pace Racing takes a non-greased rod end and drills the shank through to the race (with the ball turned so the drill can pass through the center without harming it).
Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod Ends
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod Ends
Why would you eat bad ice cream?
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod Ends
Also, I'd like to see pics of this too! Have you gotten the brakes installed? Or do you have some older pictures of the suspension even?Datsun1973 wrote:I'll post up some pictures of my entire rear end with bell crank QA1 shocks and full true IRS once I finish the 12" wilwood brakes this weekend.
Why would you eat bad ice cream?
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
Been running my links for a month now and they still work great.
When it comes time to replace the rod ends, I think I will bust out the $$$ for some teflon lined ones that don't need to be greased. The Mini guys get 1 to 3 years of street use out of them. The greased ones probably last much longer, but the grease is messy and I tend to take things apart a lot..
For reference, here is what I used:
Spacers/adapters:
X = (1.580 - (rod end thickness + seal thickness))/2
My rod ends were 0.625" and my seals were 0.047", but you should measure yours to be sure it's right. The length is divided by two because there is a spacer on each side of every rod end.
Links / rod ends (for ~1" to 2" track width increase, and increased negative camber adjustment):
Fasteners / hardware:
Part sources: sealsit.com, out-pace.com, mcmaster.com, drillspot.com
Photos:
When it comes time to replace the rod ends, I think I will bust out the $$$ for some teflon lined ones that don't need to be greased. The Mini guys get 1 to 3 years of street use out of them. The greased ones probably last much longer, but the grease is messy and I tend to take things apart a lot..
For reference, here is what I used:
Spacers/adapters:
- 2x 6061 aluminum rod, 1-1/4" diameter, 12" length (McMaster 8974K161)
X = (1.580 - (rod end thickness + seal thickness))/2
My rod ends were 0.625" and my seals were 0.047", but you should measure yours to be sure it's right. The length is divided by two because there is a spacer on each side of every rod end.
- 1x 6061 aluminum rod, 3/4" diameter, 36" length (McMaster 8974K113)
Links / rod ends (for ~1" to 2" track width increase, and increased negative camber adjustment):
- 2x Out-Pace Racing 1-090-M2 (includes rod ends)
- 2x Out-Pace Racing 1-100-M2 (includes rod ends)
- 16x Seals-it Rod end seals for 5/8" rod ends
- 2x Out-Pace Racing 1-080-M2 (includes rod ends)
- 2x Out-Pace Racing 1-090-M2 (includes rod ends)
- 16x Seals-it Rod end seals for 5/8" rod ends
Fasteners / hardware:
- 16x grease fitting caps from Drillspot.com
- 4x 10.9 M12x1.75x70mm hex bolt (McMaster 92461A600 for a pack of 10)
- 6x nylon-insert M12x1.75 hex flange locknut (McMaster 92461A600 for a pack of 25)
- 6x M12 black oxide flat washer, extra thick (McMaster 98040A107 for a pack of 5)
Part sources: sealsit.com, out-pace.com, mcmaster.com, drillspot.com
Photos:
Last edited by Series8217 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:08 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Reason: Updated to include stock track width links
Reason: Updated to include stock track width links
Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod Ends
Good info. I plan on doing something similar only using Del-sphere joints
http://www.spohn.net/shop/Del-Sphere-Pivot-Joints/
http://www.spohn.net/shop/Del-Sphere-Pivot-Joints/
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod Ends
I race against a car owned by the Sealsit company. Nice people. Good product.
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- Series8217
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
I already have some play in the front inner link bearings, and I probably have less than 2000 miles on the car since I installed them. I think the grease just attracts dust (brake dust) even with the seals-it boots on there. I'll probably replace them with non-greased teflon units, or else make some sort of full boot that doesn't allow any dust to get in.
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
After the initial encounter with cheap rod ends, I put high end steel on steel rod ends in mine, with Pro-Werks/Chassis Shop rod end seals. I'd have to look at the log, but I probably have 10K miles on the car since then and haven't had any problems.
Most of the rod end gimmicks like teflon friction surfaces or greasable rod-ends just don't last in the automotive application.
Most of the rod end gimmicks like teflon friction surfaces or greasable rod-ends just don't last in the automotive application.
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
So un-lubricated steel ball & race rod ends are the way to go? Aurora I assume?
I figured the greased ones would have been the best since that's what all the OEMs use, but it seems the OE-style ball joints have a different construction.
I figured the greased ones would have been the best since that's what all the OEMs use, but it seems the OE-style ball joints have a different construction.
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
I think I ordered from Aurora directly via my dad's employer.
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
Will, what are you using for lube on the rod ends?
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
I had previously neglected to mention that the links in my parts list were not adjustable all the way down to stock width, since I was increasing my track width slightly. I updated my parts list to include link lengths for stock track width: http://realfierotech.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... 90#p137290
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
I didn't use any lubrication... installed dry with the seal washers.Series8217 wrote:Will, what are you using for lube on the rod ends?
Have you seen any of those tubes as short as 4"? I need to measure, but I'm guessing that's how long I'll need them to be for the control arms I'll be building soon.
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
Only steel ones. I think I posted a link in your car build thread.The Dark Side of Will wrote:I didn't use any lubrication... installed dry with the seal washers.Series8217 wrote:Will, what are you using for lube on the rod ends?
Have you seen any of those tubes as short as 4"? I need to measure, but I'm guessing that's how long I'll need them to be for the control arms I'll be building soon.
There are unthreaded hex tubes which are hollow all the way down the center; you could just get one of those, cut it in half or to length, and thread it. I forget the source, but I'll post it here if I find it.
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
The tubes in the link you posted have 5/8" RH threads for the clevis and 1/2" LH threads for the rod end. I was looking at the 1/2" clevis in order to keep the ball joint mount plate to 1/4". If I step up to the 5/8" clevis, I'd have to go to a 3/8" plate to mount the ball joint. That's overkill (and extra weight) even by my standards. I guess I could go to a 5/8" rod end at the body pivot...Series8217 wrote:Only steel ones. I think I posted a link in your car build thread.The Dark Side of Will wrote:I didn't use any lubrication... installed dry with the seal washers.Series8217 wrote:Will, what are you using for lube on the rod ends?
Have you seen any of those tubes as short as 4"? I need to measure, but I'm guessing that's how long I'll need them to be for the control arms I'll be building soon.
There are unthreaded hex tubes which are hollow all the way down the center; you could just get one of those, cut it in half or to length, and thread it. I forget the source, but I'll post it here if I find it.
I've seen hollow round bar stock... hollow hexagonal bar stock seems reasonable.
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
This. (Assuming you can get a LH clevis)The Dark Side of Will wrote: I guess I could go to a 5/8" rod end at the body pivot...
The cost increase moving up from 1/2" to 5/8" for the rod end is insignificant compared to the cost of buying LH and RH taps in order to use the unfinished tubes.
BTW I found unthreaded tubes for 5/8" but nothing for 1/2". That's not a common rod end size for suspension parts. I think that's why all the 1/2" ones are swaged.
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
Yeah, and I'm obviously already using 5/8" units on the Storm Trooper's lateral links, as I made those using the tubes you posted when you started this thread.
Edit: I *thought* that www.chassisshop.com had LH clevii, but I guess not.
LH Clevii found: http://meziere.carshopinc.com/product_i ... 80/TC1220L
Edit: I *thought* that www.chassisshop.com had LH clevii, but I guess not.
LH Clevii found: http://meziere.carshopinc.com/product_i ... 80/TC1220L
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
Looks like McMaster has them too: 4749T152The Dark Side of Will wrote:Yeah, and I'm obviously already using 5/8" units on the Storm Trooper's lateral links, as I made those using the tubes you posted when you started this thread.
Edit: I *thought* that http://www.chassisshop.com had LH clevii, but I guess not.
LH Clevii found: http://meziere.carshopinc.com/product_i ... 80/TC1220L
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- Series8217
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Re: Aluminum suspension tubes-- 88 Rear Suspension with Rod
Found some great information on different types of rod ends in this thread on Corner Carvers:
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/sh ... stcount=10
Apparently two-piece rod ends are pretty lousy because the bodies have to be made of swagable (swageable?) material (the bodies are swaged around the balls). They are said to wear pretty quickly. My experience confirms that.
Loader slot bearings have slots in the bodies so the balls can be inserted afterward. This means the bodies can be made of a better material have much more tightly controlled tolerances. Loader slot bearings with some PTFE should be decent on a car. QA1's XM series are an example of this type of rod end. These are ~$20 for a 5/8" rod end.
The best are the three-piece rod ends, which have a race swaged around the ball and THEN inserted into the body. Apparently this gives the most contact area and best fit. Also, the bearing can be removed and replaced without having to replace the housing. QA1's HM-T rods are an example of a three-piece PTFE-lined rod end. They're ~$30 - $35 each for a 5/8" rod end.
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/sh ... stcount=10
Apparently two-piece rod ends are pretty lousy because the bodies have to be made of swagable (swageable?) material (the bodies are swaged around the balls). They are said to wear pretty quickly. My experience confirms that.
Loader slot bearings have slots in the bodies so the balls can be inserted afterward. This means the bodies can be made of a better material have much more tightly controlled tolerances. Loader slot bearings with some PTFE should be decent on a car. QA1's XM series are an example of this type of rod end. These are ~$20 for a 5/8" rod end.
The best are the three-piece rod ends, which have a race swaged around the ball and THEN inserted into the body. Apparently this gives the most contact area and best fit. Also, the bearing can be removed and replaced without having to replace the housing. QA1's HM-T rods are an example of a three-piece PTFE-lined rod end. They're ~$30 - $35 each for a 5/8" rod end.