Cobra Supercharger on a Northstar

[THE PUNISHER]

Please, as little as I think of Aaron, you really did ask for this. Now that you listed your mods to the swap we all know that your running a comander 950. I didnt know that b4, and im sure many didnt.

I dont know shit about superchargers (or a lot of things I have never worked on, including your car) But wouldnt an efficient blower that didnt cause more heating of the intake charge than necessary be a better idea, I mean we always hear people including you bitching about fiero owners being cheap, it just seems to me that your gonna go throught the exorbenant effort to supercharge your n* and not wait till tax return time to pick the right unit. If you think this is as close to right as you can get for the n* say so and be done with my last comment. I dont wish to be hypocritical, so I wont go spending other peoples money on the internet, but please do the same and dont call out every other fiero owner for not spending the money, when you are saying here that you dont care about the inefficiency of the blower, just the fact that some used units are going for cheap on ebay.

I do believe that it will work, and work well. Its gonna cost a lot of money to do, $1500+ however, so good luck. Post pics of progress.

I will put it this way. I have north of $20 grand in the car. I wouldn't bother spending $3500++ on a efficient Blower for the northstar. In this case I have seen a 4.6 DOHC cobra SC witht he blower off and it looked very similar. It's not a case of waiting til tax return , if I wanted to go and spend the money I would. But With technology the way it is these days Im not going to try and keep up with the neighbours. a NEw C6 Vette is capable of high 11's and it's dead nuts reliable. That is something you will never see with a fiero. The Tranny will always be a question unless you want to spend the big bucks and adapt one of those nifty VW drag trannies.. Then what do you have .. an ultra fast Fiero that cost you the same as a uSed Z06. At my current investment I could have had a C5 Vette and bolted ona lot of shit , I could have kept my M3 and added a turbo. But now that my project is winding down somewhat I want to do things the easy way> i ahve spent the money on the suspension , the brakes and the install. If I can install a SC and pickup 100hp on a stock motor, Im going to do it. Northstars are cheap as hell now. People bitch aboutthe cost of engine swaps , but I paid $2000 for my northstar ,when most of my friends are paying twice that for Honda engines.

At the end of the day it's not a money issue , it's a bang for the buck issue. The Northstar is one of the best foundations for HP (if not the best) in Fieorland.. the problem is that the population of peopel that is trying to odify them is Nil in comparison to the 3.8SC crowd.

I have seen Northstars as low as $900 CDN out there that were in good shape. The motors are reliable as hell. I just wanted to try something different. In-efficient or not. If I found thatthe Cobra SC gave hand of God acceleration with no problems after a year of hard driving would I upgrade to a whipple?? Perhaps...Like anyone I get used to HP and after a while cars feel slow. But to go out on a bender and buy a $3500 blower that Im not even sure fits is rediclous. Keep in mind the blower upgrades for a cobra will bolt on. Im not doing any of this to be a pioneer , becasue god knows I sure as hell didn't pioneer the N* 5spd Swap , But I would like to try something different.

The heads and cams will undoubtedly make near the same power as the Blower , and probably put a lot less stress on the engine...but it's been done. I just wanted to try something new.

In starting this thread I wanted Opinions on the Cobra blower on a N* , any insight / ideas ect. I didn't want a laundry list of reasons why it wouldn't work. People who sit around formulating why things won't work don't get shit done , or live medicore lives...so fuck that.


I hope that gives you all some ideas as to my thought process.

I ordered the gaskets this morning , and I will get them tomorrow.

I have an extra setof heads and an intake , Im sure although time consuming I can figure something out.

[Aaron]

I never said it wouldn't work, just that for the same amount of effort you could have a lot more power, better gas mileage, more reliability, less detonation(Or KR), and a longer lasting unit.

I never said anything degrading about the N*, you should know by now that I'd die for one. I would MUCH rather have that than my 3.4.

And if the M112 fits, than a 3300AX is sure to fit, they are nearly the same physical size. You would have to remake the base plate, but that is to be expected. And believe it or not, the 2 blowers are very similiar in design. You might even be able to find one of the factory Kenne Belle or Whipple 2.2 or 2.3l units that were an option on some of the SVT Cobras, or standard on the GT. But those go for A LOT of money, normally near $1000 for a 50,000 mile unit. And $3500 for the blower? They aren't that bad, figure about $1500, maybe $2000, with all of the accessories (Pulleys, custom drive shaft, etc)

It really annoys me when you all piss all over the PFFer's that install junkyard turboes, yet won't say anything when he mentions using a junkyard supercharger. At least they are rebuilding their turboes! I do realize that it isn't that bad, it is a decent blower, just no where near the Centrifugals or Twin Screws. I also see your point as to why you're using it, and honestly I see nothing wrong with that. The average Joe off the street is going to be shocked to see a blower underneath there period, and he won't notice the difference between a M112 and a Whipple, nor will he care.

Good luck with it, I do hope to see it get done and I'd love to watch videos and see its numbers!

[stimpy]

Shut the fuck up Donny.

[Shaun41178(2)]

I will put it this way. I have north of $20 grand in the car. i ahve spent the money on the suspension , the brakes and the install.

At the end of the day it's not a money issue , it's a bang for the buck issue.

But to go out on a bender and buy a $3500 blower that Im not even sure fits is rediclous.

I think that last bit speaks volumes. Aaron listen to what he is saying. He is not going to go out and spend over $1500 on a blower when it might not even fit. Whast the fucking point of that? He has already put over $20k into his car already so he hasn't skimped anywhere. I helped build part of the car and I can tell you its a beautifull car and everything is done right. Thats because he spent the money. Now he wants to get a $500 blower to see if the thing will even work and you are giving him shit. Damn dude get a clue.

He isnt' a cheapass He has more money in his fiero then you have made yoru whole life.

Like he said why spend $2k on a damn whipple if it wont' even work. It makes no fuckign sense. If he can get the stock cobra one to work, then I am sure he will be abel to get a diff blower on there later on down the road.

[Kohburn]

yeah, no need to be a ball bearing turbo/whipple elitist.. people can always upgrade after they've proved something works

obviously non bb turbos and the m112 supercharger work or manufacturers wouldn't install them on cars

[Aaron]

I can understand doing it to see if it can even be done, but I guess I see no reason why it couldn't. The physical size of the blower is th eonly thing that could prevent it from working, and it is evident that it will at least fit.

Again, I cna understand doing it to try something out, to learn and such to see if it works, but it isn't the best blower in terms of performance.

And I never said they didn't work. There are GTPs running 10s on the M90. They'd probably run 9s with the Whipple, but that's besides the point. The Eaton blowers are a lot cheaper to install on factory cars at low boost levels, they are a lot more abundant, and are quieter.

[Indy]

So it would be tough to install becuz of intake tubing?


Don't post here again...I don't want to hear it ..go to fag land where opinions like yours are the norm.

Cut the annoying fuck some slack. Since when was posting a shitty opinion so wrong?

[The Dark Side of Will]

In starting this thread I wanted Opinions on the Cobra blower on a N* , any insight / ideas ect. I didn't want a laundry list of reasons why it wouldn't work. People who sit around formulating why things won't work don't get shit done , or live medicore lives...so fuck that.

You know as well as I do that it can be done. The trick is going to be packaging a decent manifold... hell if you don't want a decent manifold, just build a box that spans both sets of intake ports and bolt the supercharger on top of it. If you upgrade to 8 or 10 rib belt you could probably run it with basically stock Northstar accessory belt routing.

[Aaron]

In starting this thread I wanted Opinions on the Cobra blower on a N* , any insight / ideas ect. I didn't want a laundry list of reasons why it wouldn't work. People who sit around formulating why things won't work don't get shit done , or live medicore lives...so fuck that.

You know as well as I do that it can be done. The trick is going to be packaging a decent manifold... hell if you don't want a decent manifold, just build a box that spans both sets of intake ports and bolt the supercharger on top of it. If you upgrade to 8 or 10 rib belt you could probably run it with basically stock Northstar accessory belt routing.

That would actually make for a very good intake manifold, assuming he repalces the entire stock unit, then just uses steel or aluminum flanges with very short runners.

Thankfully, there will be no low end losses since you'll have boost down low, and when boost is present, the shorter/larger the runner the more power it will give as it essentially has no restrictions. So although it may not look great (Though it can be made to look good), it will functionally perform well, and also allow you to position the blower however you want.

[The Dark Side of Will]

What I was getting at was NO runners... just the length of the intake ports.
Litterally just a box bolted to the cylinder head/intake manifold mating surface, with the blower bolted on top.

The one driveability problem might be that such a large plenum volume would slow the boost response of the supercharger, but that might also work out well by slowing the onset of torque and saving the transmission.

[whipped]

You know as well as I do that it can be done. The trick is going to be packaging a decent manifold... hell if you don't want a decent manifold, just build a box that spans both sets of intake ports and bolt the supercharger on top of it.

The best idea would be to figure out a way to incorporate this with the factory intercooler. From what I've seen, it should fit neatly in the valley. It would be nice to find something smaller though. Don't the 3800sc crowd have a thin intercooler? Something that just like bolts to the underside of the SC, and adds maybe an inch in height?

So what's the word on the gaskets?

[Aaron]

What I was getting at was NO runners... just the length of the intake ports.
Litterally just a box bolted to the cylinder head/intake manifold mating surface, with the blower bolted on top.

The one driveability problem might be that such a large plenum volume would slow the boost response of the supercharger, but that might also work out well by slowing the onset of torque and saving the transmission.

Oh I see. That would also work well, but how would you incorporate the injectors? Does the N* have direct cylinder injection?

You could face slower boost response, but the size of plenum you'd need to have this would have to be huge, and a lot of piping. I honestly doubt, with the M90 on top, you would ever notice lag like that while the blower builds boost. It will take it a plit second to build boost, but I doubt you'd notice it between that and a much smaller plenum. The difference would have to be massive, like if the M90 was mounted in the trunk, and ran 4" piping all ofer the engine bay until you found the throttle body...lol

By having no intake runners, you would harm your off boost torque. But, if you are in this situation, and need more torque, lay the pedal down, it builds boost, and then you have all the torque your tranny can handle. So basically, this setup could be harsh on a turbocharged, or centrifugal setup that doesn't build low end boost, but on a roots or twin screw blower, you won't have a probem as you always have the ability to have boost.

[The Dark Side of Will]

You've never seen a Northstar...

The box I'm talking about could easily be 18 x 18 x 3... which is nearly 1,000 ci. Running 0.5 bar of boost, even with MP112, you're going to be running close to 2:1 drive ratio. Anyway, at 0.5 bar of boost, the blower will move about 70 ci more air per engine revolution than the engine can ingest. Working a rate equation as a first order estimate, this will take 15 revolutions to fill the plenum and provide boost. The second order approximation would be a differential equation, the solution to which will be an exponential asymptotically approaching max boost. It will take significantly more than 15 revolutions to come close to max boost. Thus 15 revolutions is not a good number, just a lower limit for how long it would take that size plenum to build boost.

That may not sound like much, but it will be preceptible.

Not having seen a Cobra intercooler, I would hazard a guess that because of the location of the Northstar starter, the use of that intercooler would require the blower to be mounted unreasonably high.

The Northstar has a number of design features that give it less valley space than that Ford engine: bay to bay breathing holes in main bulkheads inside the crank case... this requires raising the valley somewhat; starter location... actually a very good location for the starter, but makes it harder to mount an intercooler there; and VALLEY BRACING... formerly only seen in full race castings... the production Northstar has valley bracing webs cast integrally with the block.

So yes, a 3800 style intercooler would have to be adapted.

Ryan Falconer builds IRL engines with superchargers from SC Northstar... ask him how much he wants for such a setup.

[whipped]

Someone just needs to splurge

[S8n]

Ok, FNG here to give some advise and info. Yes, I have have experience being a mechanic by trade and owning several high-perf machines in the past including an '02 Z28 and a '03 Lightning. Now I have a Fiero. Here's my two cents:
First, you guys bitch alot. Ok, next:
The Cobra system will not fit. Period. The intercooler extends between 4 and six inches down into the valley. It bolts to the Eaton and then the Eaton bolts to the lower intake. The Lightning setup is the same way. This would be better: or
You need something compact that fits onto of the motor, not in it. The Cobra and L have nothing in the valley except the big ass intercooler and lower intake. Now with that out of the way, let's talk getting the boost. All of this is useless unless you have a sufficient load on the engine. I was boosting 14 lbs at 2000 rpm in my L and putting over 500 lbs/ft of torque to the ground. Mainly because the 4000 lbs of truck put enough of a load on the engine to build boost that fast. These cars (Fieros) are light enough that you may not be able to build the necessary (or wanted) boost before redline. There jst might not be enough of a load on the engine. Moving on. Putting that boost into a 10:1 compression engine. The LS1 guys have been doing it for seven years now. Have a good tune, good gas, and don't do anything stupid and it'll be safe. As for knock sensors, thet can be good but most likely won't be needed. Hell, my L didn't use knock sensors. Yes, I know that they are there from the factory, but the vibrations from the supercharger made them useless. They were turned off from the factory. Even if the aftermarket ones can be used, they are most lkely too slow to retard the timing to save the engine. It only takes one lean burn to melt a piston. I'm done typing for now, but let me know what you think.

[S8n]

BTW, the top pic is the new Caddy setup, big $$$ and the other pics is a LS1 pickup truck Radix unit. Both have intercoolers. Cheers.

[eHoward]

Welcome to the forum.

BTW, the top pic is the new Caddy setup, big $$$ and the other pics is a LS1 pickup truck Radix unit. Both have intercoolers. Cheers.

[S8n]

Welcome to the forum.

Thank you! I'm gonna try and be a useful participant. Anyone elso from Orlando or central Florida?

[Shaun41178(2)]

Welcome to the forum.

Thank you! I'm gonna try and be a useful participant. Anyone elso from Orlando or central Florida?

I would personally like to welcome you. I think you know quite a bit and can offer a lot of tech knowledge to this forum

BTW I am out of the Daytona Beach area.

[Shaun41178(2)]

hmmm I think S8n might be onto something. Screw the Cobra blower and maybe try adn work on finding a cheap caddy supercharger setup. Its made for the n star already.