Doug Chase: Build these and they will come...

[donk_316]

Burns sells them i think.

Do a google search on it!

"3 into 1 collector"

BAM!

http://www.burnsstainless.com/MergeColl ... ctors.html
http://www.burnsstainless.com/MergeColl ... ctors.html
http://www.schoenfeldheaders.com/collectors.htm
http://www.holley.com/products.asp?product=11511HKR
http://www.minimania.com/web/Item/C-AHT ... Detail.cfm

[Fast88Fiero]

Burns sells them i think.

Do a google search on it!

"3 into 1 collector"

BAM!

http://www.burnsstainless.com/MergeColl ... ctors.html
http://www.burnsstainless.com/MergeColl ... ctors.html
http://www.schoenfeldheaders.com/collectors.htm
http://www.holley.com/products.asp?product=11511HKR
http://www.minimania.com/web/Item/C-AHT ... Detail.cfm

Thanks! :thumbleft:

[Kohburn]

Hey Drex, where did you get your collectors? Do you have a part number? I searched summits website and could only find 4 into 1.

saw a write up a little while back about how to properly cut straight pipe to make your own collectors - was pretty interesting

[allWorkNoPlay]

Burns Collectors are sexy.

[OldschoolGP]

First off, not all W-body owners are cheap asses who would rather not mod than spend money. Those of us who are serious about our cars will spend money modding, but we aren't going to waste our money on crap. I guarantee if this guy makes a nice set of headers that will work in a W-body, he will sell them to us. I'd pay $700, but I won't pay for half-assed work. There are a lot of us W-body owners out there who have wanted headers for a long time, but most people who make them either will only make them for themselves or don't make them very well. Judging from those Fiero headers I saw, this guy knows what he's doing. So I hope he does decide to make some headers for W-bodies. If they're good, I'll promote them.

[donk_316]

I dont think these will be vehicle specific.

If he goes with my idea of a shorty design then i think it will be more of a universal application.

Then, whoever buys them can fab up a crossover for their own specific application, be it a turbo crossover or even running true dual exhaust.

[Chase Race]

To be honest, I wouldn't pay $600 for a set of headers.

Most people who do an engine swap do their own exhaust... anyone who can weld exhaust can build headers. Flanges are available on ebay.
Heck, if aaron can do it....

And this gets to the root of the problem. Series8217, this is not a dig against you; you bring up valid points. Let's examine this.

First let's look at it from the customer's perspective. First, we're talking about a car, whether it's a W-body or a Fiero, that only costs a few grand for a pretty nice one. Spend 10% - 20% of the cost of the car on headers? Who can blame someone for not wanting to? Plus, if someone is doing an engine swap they usually have at least mediocre fabrication abilities. They could probably build headers or they have a friend that can. Since a lot of people have more spare time than money, spending $600 on a set of headers doesn't make economic sense to them.

Now let's look at it from the perspective of the business. For the first set of headers I'm going to have $200 in parts and at least 20 hours of labor. My shop rate is $50/hr so that's $1000 worth of labor. I'd have to sell this set of headers for $1200 just to break even.

If I'm going to produce more headers I'll need to make a jig. Figure 10 - 20 hours to build a jig and that's another $500 - $1000 of time invested. Let's say this jig lets me build a pair of headers in 6 hours. Between parts and labor I still have $500 invested in each set. If I sell them for $600 then that's only $100 profit. If I sell 10 sets then the $1000 profit still only pays off about half of my R&D cost.

Now let's be realistic and admit that most of the time estimates above err on the low (yes, low) side. Doing good work simply takes time and when you add up the hours it can be staggering.

So that's a brief look into the economics of niche markets and non-automated fabrication. That's why you can buy small block Chevy headers all day long for $200/set but for Fiero headers you only have a couple choices and they're all $500+. That's why I can buy a trailer hitch for my Astro for $150, but an S2000 trailer hitch is $500.

With all that said, if somebody can get a DOHC to my shop to use for mock-ups, I'll look into it. No promises, though.

[Series8217]

Another problem with doing parts for Fiero engine swaps is everyone has a different setup. Some people route the exhaust the stock 3.4 way with the outlet at the rear. Others want two front manifolds and a custom crossover. Some mount their motor higher or lower in the engine bay.
Each Fiero transmission has different shift cable routing. Therefore the crossover, which must be custom if not incorporating the outlet into the rear manifold, is not going to be a universal fit if not designed very carefully. Incorporating the outlet into the rear manifold requires a lot of extra design work.
There's simply no way to make them fit all of the applications out there without multiple designs.
The most economical way of doing it would probably be to build two front manifold style designs and two crossover pipes that hug the block and heads like the factory one. The crossover pipe would have the outlet in it, one dumping off to the rear and one dumping off to the front.
But that means making 6 different parts.. 91-95 front and rear, 96-97 front and rear, and two crossover pipes. The 96-97 heads are much less common, especially when it comes to engine swaps.
If you could figure out a design that could be flipped over to use on the other cylinder head, and just adapt different flanges, that would save a lot of work. They would end up looking something like DreX's.[/u]

[Aaron]

Doesn't matter what they were intended to do... they're too big. 1.625 would be better.

They aren't too big with 15psi on the motor.

And even N/A I think they will work, with the 48mm ITBs at 12" runner length, fully reworked heads, cams, and 8000rpm I think they'd be about perfect.

[DreX]

Hey Drex, where did you get your collectors? Do you have a part number? I searched summits website and could only find 4 into 1.

www.headersbyed.com

He make what ever you want, craftmanship is second to none. :thumbleft: but the pipe thickness is very thin. :scratch:Lets see how it handle a turbo.

DreX

[DreX]

Another problem with doing parts for Fiero engine swaps is everyone has a different setup. Some people route the exhaust the stock 3.4 way with the outlet at the rear. Others want two front manifolds and a custom crossover. Some mount their motor higher or lower in the engine bay.

Those are cheap ways to do the swap. remember there is no headres to buy, so you will have to build your own or find someone that will.

Each Fiero transmission has different shift cable routing. Therefore the crossover, which must be custom if not incorporating the outlet into the rear manifold, is not going to be a universal fit if not designed very carefully. Incorporating the outlet into the rear manifold requires a lot of extra design work.
There's simply no way to make them fit all of the applications out there without multiple designs.

I thougth the OEM Fiero crossover pipe where the same in all types of trannies. :scratch:

The most economical way of doing it would probably be to build two front manifold style designs and two crossover pipes that hug the block and heads like the factory one. The crossover pipe would have the outlet in it, one dumping off to the rear and one dumping off to the front.[/qoute]

Thats why they will be shorty headers, so only need to do 2 differents crossover pipes. Basically will be shorties for 91-95 and 96+, crossover for Fiero and W-Body. Its kinda mix and match. Make a master set of shorties and then adapt it to the other frame.


And about the price, at the end mine where in $800 area, obvioulsy where custom made and that cost. I whouldnt hesitate to pay for them again, then again my mentality is diffentent that others.

I rather spend 10k in a 3k fiero and whip the ass of a guy that spend +30k in a car and more in mods. At the end how is the jerk? Owning a 2005 moded car and get schooled by a 80ish low cost fiero. :3some:

Saying that, I will spend my money well spend since im not rich. If the product delivers and the craftmanship is top notch I will make my savings and afford it. Try to save some bucks and do some crappy mod its not in my book. Is not that buy all that is for the car, rather is to pay for something is well done. Or If can some one build it with good result that is better yet, save some bucks. Thats why similar cars with similar mods behave different. Most of the time the car with better parts wins. Thats inst the car with expensive brands, most today new racers(ricers) think because its HKS or Greddy or what ever is the bomb and nothing can compare. Those companies take advantage of that and make their profits. In the other hand, knowledgeable racers can build their cars with good results and save a ton of money. Since they know what their doing, make the best of it.

Pride to own a Fiero. If GOD help me, I will start building a new Fiero and that will be a special one. The main porpouse is to outperform 90% of the cars in the street, no matter what it is. All that in a budget.

DreX

[XzotikGT]

Doug, you know my car is gonna be at your shop tomorrow for the rest of the exhaust. You can always check out my car any time you want. Hell you can use my car for the mockups. I am not really interested in a set at this point because I dont think I am at the horsepower level with the turbo to actually be looking into squeezing the last drop out yet. You know I have no problem spending the dough on my car, so when I get to that point I will be knocking on your door for small tube shortys...whether you are making them for eveyone else or not.

Also, from what I heard form several sources, You really dont want big ass tubes for a turbo setup. I was told that you wnat tubing actually a bit smaller to promote velocity, and less heat loss.

[Aaron]

You really dont want big ass tubes for a turbo setup. I was told that you wnat tubing actually a bit smaller to promote velocity, and less heat loss.

That is partially incorrect. It goes back to what you are looking for in performance with a turbo setup. With ANY mod to the motor, you choose to aim at either N/A gains or boosted gains. Intake manifolds for example, if you use a small, long runner, it promotes off-boost performance, but will restrict flow once on boost. Same goes with the headers. Large tubes may hurt the low end power (Off-boost), but they will gain significantly once boost comes on and your exhaust volume skyrockets. Thus the leading racecars using a near 1:1 intake/exhaust flow ratio in the heads. It is totally aimed at on-boost performance, with little regard to how the engine acts under vacuum. With a street driven turbo car, I'd user larger primaries than N/A, but not the same size as like your intake runners. Personally, on a turbo DOHC, I'd use 1.75" exhaust primaries.

[donk_316]

Also, from what I heard form several sources, You really dont want big ass tubes for a turbo setup. I was told that you wnat tubing actually a bit smaller to promote velocity, and less heat loss.

You are absolutely correct.

On a street driven turbo 1 5/8 will be MORE than enough

[Series8217]

Another problem with doing parts for Fiero engine swaps is everyone has a different setup. Some people route the exhaust the stock 3.4 way with the outlet at the rear. Others want two front manifolds and a custom crossover. Some mount their motor higher or lower in the engine bay.

Those are cheap ways to do the swap. remember there is no headres to buy, so you will have to build your own or find someone that will.

Not sure what you mean by "cheap ways to do the swap." Is it cheaper to route it one way or another? I chose my method purely from a performance standpoint. Shorter, freer flowing exhaust (right off the rear) is better than a long one with lots of bends (i.e. stock Fiero routing).. but it is a lot louder!

My point is that for many people there wont be headers to buy even if Doug makes them.... 'cause they wont fit in all 3.4 DOHC Fieros!

Each Fiero transmission has different shift cable routing. Therefore the crossover, which must be custom if not incorporating the outlet into the rear manifold, is not going to be a universal fit if not designed very carefully. Incorporating the outlet into the rear manifold requires a lot of extra design work.
There's simply no way to make them fit all of the applications out there without multiple designs.

I thougth the OEM Fiero crossover pipe where the same in all types of trannies. :scratch:

We're talking about the 3.4 DOHC, not the 2.8. The 3.4 DOHC OEM crossover pipe will only fit on a Getrag without modification. With the Fiero's Isuzu 5 speed and Muncie 4 speed the clutch arm interferes with the crossover. This makes it necessary to either change the clutch release setup (i.e. the expensive/hard way) or make a new crossover pipe. With a new crossover pipe (like anyone using two front manifolds, and anyone who made a crossover to clear their clutch arm) the exhaust ends up being routed a bit differently than stock. An aftermarket crossover (if one existed) would not be universal in any way shape or form.

The most economical way of doing it would probably be to build two front manifold style designs and two crossover pipes that hug the block and heads like the factory one. The crossover pipe would have the outlet in it, one dumping off to the rear and one dumping off to the front.

Thats why they will be shorty headers, so only need to do 2 differents crossover pipes. Basically will be shorties for 91-95 and 96+, crossover for Fiero and W-Body. Its kinda mix and match. Make a master set of shorties and then adapt it to the other frame.

Again, the crossover wont fit every Fiero. It wont fit mine. It wont fit Blue Shift's. It won't fit Sinister Fiero's. It won't fit the swap Sinister did for yellowartero (?). It wont fit T76racer's. What two 3.4 DOHC cars are the 2 different crossovers going to fit??

[The Dark Side of Will]

I thougth the OEM Fiero crossover pipe where the same in all types of trannies. :scratch:

We're talking about the 3.4 DOHC, not the Boat Anchor. The 3.4 DOHC OEM crossover pipe will only fit on a Getrag without modification. With the Fiero's Isuzu 5 speed and Muncie 4 speed the clutch arm interferes with the crossover. This makes it necessary to either change the clutch release setup (i.e. the expensive/hard way) or make a new crossover pipe. With a new crossover pipe (like anyone using two front manifolds, and anyone who made a crossover to clear their clutch arm) the exhaust ends up being routed a bit differently than stock. An aftermarket crossover (if one existed) would not be universal in any way shape or form.

The most economical way of doing it would probably be to build two front manifold style designs and two crossover pipes that hug the block and heads like the factory one. The crossover pipe would have the outlet in it, one dumping off to the rear and one dumping off to the front.

Thats why they will be shorty headers, so only need to do 2 differents crossover pipes. Basically will be shorties for 91-95 and 96+, crossover for Fiero and W-Body. Its kinda mix and match. Make a master set of shorties and then adapt it to the other frame.

Again, the crossover wont fit every Fiero. It wont fit mine. It wont fit Blue Shift's. It won't fit Sinister Fiero's. It won't fit the swap Sinister did for yellowartero (?). It wont fit T76racer's. What two 3.4 DOHC cars are the 2 different crossovers going to fit??

The idea Drex was trying to get across was that any such crossover would have to be designed to fit all the available options. You say the stock cross over works with 282 but won't work with Isuzu or Muncie... well does a cross over that works with the Isuzu/Muncie also work with the 282? It's not a matter of the thing that fits one not fitting the other... it's a matter of making one design that fits all by taking the options into account.

I'm talking about transmission options, not exhaust routing. Someone who wants to go around the front with stock Fiero routing would be SOL, but a rear exit set of headers that works with all transmission options should not be impossible to design by any means.

Also, I wouldn't buy shorty headers no matter what. Long tubes or stock manifolds for me. This might sound like it makes things more complicated, but it doesn't really, as there's only one proper exhaust primary length, because there's only one duration of exhaust cam available.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Doesn't matter what they were intended to do... they're too big. 1.625 would be better.

They aren't too big with 15psi on the motor.

Only if that 15 psi comes from a supercharger. If you're running a turbo at 15 psi, what's your exhaust pressure going to be? Higher than 15 psi. So what's the flow volume going to be? Not much different than N/A. Actually, due to the increased pressure, you'll see a exhaust flow volume relative to the intake that's LESS than that of N/A.

And even N/A I think they will work, with the 48mm ITBs at 12" runner length, fully reworked heads, cams, and 8000rpm I think they'd be about perfect.

For that level of modification, yes. For a stock engine, 1.75 is too big.

You really dont want big ass tubes for a turbo setup. I was told that you wnat tubing actually a bit smaller to promote velocity, and less heat loss.

That is partially incorrect. It goes back to what you are looking for in performance with a turbo setup. With ANY mod to the motor, you choose to aim at either N/A gains or boosted gains. Intake manifolds for example, if you use a small, long runner, it promotes off-boost performance, but will restrict flow once on boost. Same goes with the headers. Large tubes may hurt the low end power (Off-boost), but they will gain significantly once boost comes on and your exhaust volume skyrockets. Thus the leading racecars using a near 1:1 intake/exhaust flow ratio in the heads. It is totally aimed at on-boost performance, with little regard to how the engine acts under vacuum. With a street driven turbo car, I'd user larger primaries than N/A, but not the same size as like your intake runners. Personally, on a turbo DOHC, I'd use 1.75" exhaust primaries.

Got any references for 1:1 intake/exhaust ratio?
You look at things as boost vs not-boost, which is a distinction that's only in your imagination. The engine operates on a continuum of intake pressures and pressure ratios across the engine between intake and exhaust. For instance with the exhaust pressure higher than the intake pressure, the expansion ratio is less than the compression ratio and you need less exhaust flow than intake. If the system can be built to operate with more boost than back pressure, the situation reverses.

[donk_316]

This is why i said to build a shorty style that people can make their own crossover...

Fuck this

DOUG! Build ME a set of headers? Please?

[Series8217]

You say the stock cross over works with 282 but won't work with Isuzu or Muncie... well does a cross over that works with the Isuzu/Muncie also work with the 282?

It may be possible to build one in the stock size (with the heat shield removed) that is located high enough to clear the clutch arm, but I'm not sure I've seen that done. It looks like it would interfere with the LIM where the heater outlet is. Larger diameter would probably be out of the question. Anyway, the problem with making it a universal fit is the shifter cables are all in different places. You may have to run the crossover all the way around the cables... which would then make it interfere with the Getrag cables.

[donk_316]

Geez. Easy fix. Use the 84 Slave and clutch arm. Half the size.