Engine Rebuilding

Oversteer · Post by **Oversteer** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:42 pm

I am building a 3.4 block from the ground up. Now most of you will be asking me why I am doing this, and why not just spend the money on a 3800 SC or whatever other engine is popular at the present time. I am building the 3.4 because I believe I can get over 200 hp out of it, and have the ability at any time to put the 2.8 back into the car if I feel the need to have the whole thing stock again. Plus, no scary wiring. My car, my choice, my money. I am doing it more for the experience, as this is a hobby and this is what I want to do.

Now the question I have here is, of the parts mentioned below which should I be replacing and which can I reuse from the original block.

Rod Bolts
Valves (change to the SI valves is it makes a difference)
Retainers
Head Bolts
Pushrods

Parts I will be changing or adding

Cam, Rod, and Main Bearings
New gaskets, grometts and seals
Freeze plugs
Valve Locks
Valve Springs
H 272 Cam
Full Roller Rockers
Rocker Arm Studs
Lifters
Timing Chain Kit
Water Pump
Coil plus MSD
TDC Pistons
Rings
Coil
19 lbs Injectors
Ported and Polished Heads
65 mm Throttle Body
Custom Intake (Middle and Upper)
Waterpump
Spring Headers, High Flow Cat, and Borla Exhaust

Would there be any advantage to added a windage tray and high volume oil pump?

Also, if the block is in good shape, and I just have the cylinders honed to break the glaze, can I still use standard pistons? Or do I have to go with an oversize?

Thanks

p8ntman442 · Post by **p8ntman442** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:00 pm

If by spring headers, you mean sprint manifolds from the fiero store, save your money, or buy my set. You can get the same gains from porting stock manifolds. Or get a set of equal length headers built. 200hp from a 3.4 will want to breathe.

I would change head bolts and rod bolts for sure. I doubt you will need the SI valves for the HP range your looking for. If you can step up to larger valves I say go for it.

product1620 · Post by **product1620** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:34 pm

What ratio rockers will you be using? Ive heard 1.52's will work with the 272 cam but i'm not sure.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:06 pm

p8ntman442 wrote:If by spring headers, you mean sprint manifolds from the fiero store, save your money, or buy my set. You can get the same gains from porting stock manifolds. Or get a set of equal length headers built. 200hp from a 3.4 will want to breathe.

I would change head bolts and rod bolts for sure. I doubt you will need the SI valves for the HP range your looking for. If you can step up to larger valves I say go for it.

I couldn't agree more, with all of this.

As for the valves, I've heard SI valves flow LESS than the stockers. Since you aren't running high RPM or dynamic compression, you'll be fine with stock valves. But get new ones if you can, and larger doesn't hurt.

Head/rod bolts are a must, and I'd use ARP hardware.

As for the high volume oil pump, I'd vote a negative on that, unless you are running significanlty higher RPM.

The Dark Side of Will · Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:25 pm

Do you have the block yet?

I'd say start from a roller cam 3400 block and do all the stuff to that. The cam will be more expensive, but has the potential to be that much better.

Oversteer · Post by **Oversteer** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:19 am

I already have the block, and I looked for a roller prior to purchasing the one I have, but I couldn't find one, and the one I bought was just too sweet to not buy. I could have just bolted it in, but I am in bad need of a new hobby as I have lost interest in golf.

I meant Sprint Headers, sorry for the typo. I bought a brand new set for $200, so if I am buying them strickly for the good looks and ceramic coating, then hey why not.

I am using stock ratio rocker arms. I didn't think the valves would make a difference, but I am fairly new into this engine building thing and I know nothing.

Where can I find ARP head bolts? I can't seem to find them anywhere.

I appreciate the help guys. I am also fairly impressed that Aaron had something constructive to say and didn't make reference to my stupid decision to build a pushrod engine. I realize that there are a million better engine swaps, but I got this thing about stock wiring, I like to leave it that way. I have had two car fires caused by poor wiring, and that wiring was stock. Since then, the only thing I will touch is the stereo wiring, the rest I will leave alone.

If I find the 3.4 doesn't have the power I want, I will just add a turbo. I would like to one day build another Fiero with a 3800, but not my Formula.

Thanks guys,

willie · Post by **willie** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:10 am

You shouldn't need bigger injectors with that set up (I'll let you know as I am doing a similar engine).

The 1.52 Comp Cams roller tip rockers work with the 272 cam - anything more and you need to look for different valve springs.

My engine is slowly coming together - I'm using the lower profile Camaro plenum on mine.

Oversteer · Post by **Oversteer** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:06 pm

Well I was told that the 17lbs injectors are good to 200 hp at the crank.

If I follow the same simple plan as Orief, Donk and the othr 3.4 boys I should be able to hit the 230 mark at the crank. I am not sure what else I could do outside of forced induction to make power out of this engine.

The 19lbs injectors that I have are in better shape thats why I am using them.

The Dark Side of Will · Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:14 pm

What are you going to do for PCM tuning?

The very least you should do is get someone to burn a chip for 19# injectors for you. Don't dick around with AFPR's and other bandaids.

willie · Post by **willie** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:24 pm

Going to 19 pound won't hurt anything if you already have them - I just don't know if you need them. Guess I'll let you know as I am trying stock 17 pound injectors on mine.

You've got most of the power-making mods listed, but you could save some money by driopping the headers and just relieving the Fiero headers - although the various header producers have never seen fit to bother with checking the efficacy of their (expensive) products on a dyno, you can get 8-9 BHP yourself for zero bucks. I suspect that the headers for several hundred bucks may only improve on that by another 2-3 BHP, but we'll never know for sure until they put a before and after dyno run up.

You can also save money on the full roller rockers - you don't need them and the Comp Cams roller tip will do you as well for half the price.

The other area you should look at is intake breathing. If you want to stick with Fiero then the rather ugly Trueleo intake may be the way to go. I went with a bored and sleeved 62 mm throttle body and we matched the Camaro upper plenum to that (believe me, there isn't much extra wall thickness at that size).

As has been suggested you should look at chip changes to suit your engine as well.

The Dark Side of Will · Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:38 pm

If you REALLY want to get into things...

Alan Hamilton got ~140 whp from an IT legal blueprinted 2.8 with stock cam. The big difference from the norm is that he had long tube headers. If you REALLY want to do exhaust tuning right, then save the money on those Spring manifolds and put it toward a set of custom headers.

phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1120 has some discussion about those headers and some pics too.

From a couple of sources I've heard things that make me think that a good set of headers is the most result-producing bang-for-the-buck mod you can do to a 60 degree V6 (at least an iron head one) short of Nitrous.

willie · Post by **willie** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:40 pm

PS - you say you can always add a turbo. Not so, grasshopper.

The engine specs for a blown engine are significantly different than for a conventionally tuned engine. If you build a conventional engine with turbo in mind it won't be as good unblown as if you had built it without intending to turbo. If you do not have turbo in mind and then slap a turbo on, you will likely have the wrong compression and cam.

In your case, while the cam will work when blown, a different profile with less overlap would be better. Similarly, if you want to use much boost, a lower compression ratio is called for.

I use Ross Racing pistons custom made for 8.5 compression and a cam profile based on some Comp Cams stuff that they did up for me. I manage to use up to about 13 PSI (no point with anything more without intercooler).

For non-turbo, the 272 cam is better and it would be nice to have something like 10:1 compression (I'm settling for stock on my non-blown 3.4)

Oversteer · Post by **Oversteer** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:59 pm

Well I got the Sprint Headers for cheap and they sit in my shop awaiting the day they get bolted on. If merely for looks, I'd still pay the $200.

As for the intake, well thats taken care of, it will flow better than stock, and it will look better than the Truleo. The design of the intake has been around for awhile, I just need to get the runners done and I will post some pictures. I work in engineering, so its not hard to find someone with a million ideas and too much time on there hands. It will look sweet and it will flow, but how well it flows is a completely different question.

The roller rockers, well they were cheap as well and I already have those. Just putting them on for the whole "thats cool" factor although they will only ever be seen once, but thats good enough for me.

I will have Sinister burn my chip, and work with him until I get everything right.

Thats the plan. I realize I am building a n/a engine, to install a turbo I would need to change a few things. Turbo is long down the road and may be never.

I like the idea of custom headers, but for the current time I will build the custom intake and go back at it later. Once step at a time, I am new at this. I realize that theres no sense in going half way, but for the time being I will port the y pipe or build a new one and go from there.

I really appreciate the help guys, I look up to the majority of the people on this forum, your advice and help have always been helpful.

Thanks again

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:00 pm

What if you could add triple the power of the Truelo for half the price?

Now I won't go on a whole DOHC rant here, but you may want to consider this. It does have wiring, which I am just as afraid of as you are, but it shouldn't be bad.

Why not swap on 3400 heads, valvetrain, intakes, and exhaust manifolds? EASILY triple the power of a Truelo, at probably 1/3 the price. But you would need to swap over to a DIS ignition, and you would need some ECU tuning. But you get FAR superior aluminum heads, a FAR superior intake manifold setup, and superior exhaust manifolds. And everything bolts right on. If I was keeping my 2p8, I'd have these parts in the mail.

Just an idea...

Oversteer · Post by **Oversteer** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:15 pm

I hear ya Aaron. I would love to put a DOHC in, but I love the simplicity of plug and play brother.

I should go to a DIS and all that fun stuff, but for now I will do the P/R with its heavy, and crap ass iron heads.

Plus it will get the project done quickly so I can start working on other things.

This whole thing started over a bad set of valve seals on my 2.8. How has it come to this point? hahahahaha

willie · Post by **willie** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:25 pm

I am sticking with iron heads but using DIS - no reason you can't, if you are getting a 3.4 Camaro engine anyway. Just have Sinister do a chip to suit an ECM that comes from an engine with that option.

The Dark Side of Will · Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:26 pm

I believe Aaron was suggesting the Gen III aluminum pushrod heads, not a DOHC swap.

A friend of mine wants to build a new engine for his Cherokee because the old one has a mild lifter tick.

Oversteer · Post by **Oversteer** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:40 pm

He made reference to both.

I have though about doing the gen III heads. That would be awesome.

I think I will stick with the iron heads for now. I know there are better blocks, and better heads. But I could go all day naming off better engines too.

I really should have been thinking about a DOHC, a 3800, or a Northstar, but I like the idea of having a mainly stock engine. The only difference between my engine and the 2.8 is the bore, stroke. Not to mention some of the other small things, but generally they are the same block.

I even once thought of a SBC, but those were my younger days. If I had an 87 or older Fiero sitting around, I would strip it down and rebuild everything from the suspension, to the interior to the engine.

But for this job, I just want something simple. My first time really embarking on something like this. I just want to have fun with this set up, and do as much of the work as possible. The next time, I will go all out.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:55 pm

I didn't mean to mention the DOHC. The "consider this part" was meant to refer to the next paragraph. I meant for you to consider the 3400 top end, as it is essentially plug and play, just a little bit of wiring. Not very complicated at all. And the power gains will be huge.

The Dark Side of Will · Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:23 pm

Aaron wrote:I didn't mean to mention the DOHC.

Yeah, that just happens.

Keep working on it. The first step is admitting you have a problem.