I'm totally confused... like, someone please help me

DiggityBiggity · Post by **DiggityBiggity** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:10 am

Ok, so I've got about 25 cases of spring water outside next to my shed under trash bags to shield them from the weather. Well, it's been REALLY cold outside (like in the teens) so I went outside tonight to check on them, and make sure that they didn't bust open from freezing. To my amazement, some of the bottles were frozen solid!! (the plastic was ok) but some of the bottles didn't even have a thin layer of ice, they were perfectly fine, cold, but fine.

Does anyone have any idea as to why this might be?

cactus bastard · Post by **cactus bastard** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:37 am

Was there a pattern to the frozen bottles?

Depending on the pattern, I've got a few sound theories, but if they seemed pretty random, then all I can come up with atm are assorted speculations - which probably won't get you much closer to an actual answer.

Falcon4 · Post by **Falcon4** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:52 am

THEY SPIKED YOUR WATER!! THE BASTARDS!!

SappySE107 · Post by **SappySE107** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:16 am

Falcon4 · Post by **Falcon4** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:22 am

Honestly, I'm going to guess there was a pattern to them and the ones in the middle of the stack were OK because the ones along the outside were freezing first. The heat from surrounding bottles ("relative" heat) kept the others from freezing, in the same way that an ice cube freezes from the outside in. They won't freeze all at once unless there was moving air between them all... :thumbleft:

SappySE107 · Post by **SappySE107** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:29 am

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:07 am

you also are leaving out the greenhouse effect (not from greenhouse gasses, but from having it tented in and the plastic allowing sunlight in and trapping radiant heat inside. this could help keep the ones in the middle warmer. or keep the ones closer to the plastic warmer because they had less airspace to lose heat to.

this could result int he ones in the middle being frozen, the ones on the outside being frozen, but some inbetween being just warm enough to not freeze.

DiggityBiggity · Post by **DiggityBiggity** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:07 am

There wasn't a definite pattern, and some on the outside weren't frozen, as others were. I couldn't tell if the ones in the middle were frozen, however, it seemed rather even numbered from frozen to unfrozen. Very strange if you ask me. :scratch:

cactus bastard · Post by **cactus bastard** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:50 am

More heat is lost due to radiation than a lot of people realize. Even a thin layer of plastic can reflect a lot of that back in, but not necessarily back into the original bottle that lost the heat. Also, being outside, thereâ€™s going to be air passing through and around, even if itâ€™s wrapped up.
If it seems pretty random, then itâ€™s probably just a bunch of different factors working together to produce varying results between bottles.

whipped · Post by **whipped** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:47 am

To answer your question, the water became supercooled.

It's possible for plain water to remain a liquid below freezing temperatures. Water crystals need something for them to "latch onto" so they can grow. Once one starts growing the rest can hang onto that one, and so on...

This can be anything from a speck of dust to a sharp surface on a glass or bottle.

If your plastic bottles don't have that, then they won't freeze until something forces them to freeze.

See here, there's some cool videos of it in action:
http://f0rked.com/articles/supercooling

This also works in reverse... you can heat water above 212 and not have it boil. Remember the "microwave explosion"?

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:50 am

Freezing is an exothermic process. That is, as the water freezes, it evolves heat (latent heat of freezing or solidification), which is then available for other things. Crystalization is also a finnicky critter. Look up "super cooled liquid".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercooled_liquid

Water can be liquid below freezing.

Pyrthian · Post by **Pyrthian** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:54 am

there is also the pressure inside the bottle changing the freezing temp. if the bottle has a good seal, when the water & air pocket contract from the cold, it will create a vacuum, which lowers the freezing temp. on a bottle with a crappy seal, it will let air in, keep pressure even, and freeze at normal temp.

DiggityBiggity · Post by **DiggityBiggity** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:26 am

I knew you guys could help me, this fucking forum has the smartest minds on the internets... I am convinced (no sarcasm, I mean it... together, we could solve world hunger... but why bother? I'd rather work on Howards Fiero)

:thumbleft:

cactus bastard · Post by **cactus bastard** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:04 pm

On the supercooled theory, it doesn't take much for ice crystals to start forming, and then obviously they'd propogate throughout the rest of the bottle. He said it was spring water, so it's going to be full of minerals and stuff right? Also, when he picked up the bottles, bumped them around etc. those are more chances for it to freeze. Supercooled, superheated, supersaturated stuff is all inherantly very unstable.
I don't know too much about supercooled stuff specifically though. Is it reasonable to have a whole bunch of supercooled water?
Can supercooled water be formed under such imperfect conditions?
I don't have time to look anything up right now (I'm at work), but I know Will doesn't mind doing other people's research :la:

cactus bastard · Post by **cactus bastard** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:09 pm

Oh, I guess I should have just read the link Ryan posted. Apparently it's pretty common after all. That's cool, I'm gonna stick some water outside tonight!

DiggityBiggity · Post by **DiggityBiggity** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:40 pm

I'm gonna try and take some video in a couple minutes, today is crazy busy for me, going to Vermont tonight with the band

DiggityBiggity · Post by **DiggityBiggity** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:58 pm

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... 1905767795

Xanth · Post by **Xanth** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:18 pm

Sure beats watching paint dry :thumbleft:

mysticfire6602 · Post by **mysticfire6602** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:37 pm

blasphemy

DiggityBiggity · Post by **DiggityBiggity** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:36 pm

mysticfire6602 wrote:blasphemy

Huh?