VA Tech Shooting

V8Mikie · Post by **V8Mikie** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:28 pm

p8ntman442 wrote:In boston, my roomate came from duty (airforce MP) and went to class in uniform (including his sidearm on accident) the teacher didnt say anything, but left the room for a minute, then 5 minuts later BPD escorted him from the classroom.

Diggity, you and INDY are so WRONG!

Allow me to raise the bullshit flag.

First off, Air Force SP's do not walk off duty with guns around their hip. Those weapons are U.S. Government property and are checked out/turned in before and after every shift. No way in hell the guy is walking around with a gun around his waist, thigh, etc.

Secondly, an off duty military member is no different than anyone else. They have to obey the laws like everyone else. Just because I am in uniform doesn't mean I can carry a weapon when its against the law for Joe civilian (without a carry permit).

Finally, assuming for a second this did happen which is quite a stretch, I can't imagine the kind of trouble this guy would be in, article 15, loss of rank, the whole nine yards.

p.s. one thing I learned from this shooting is that a 9mm is not underpowered like everyone claims.

whipped · Post by **whipped** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:53 pm

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Racist. Do you think Teutonic Goths have a monopoly on going nuts and shooting people?

Of the last 20 or so school shootings - name one where the shooter was asian. Or black!

AFAIK they've all been white dudes who have been bullied and/or find their girlfriend with someone else.

DiggityBiggity · Post by **DiggityBiggity** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:05 pm

If someone with a CCW was in one of those classrooms... it wouldn't have been such a problem... it would have been over.

AkursedX · Post by **AkursedX** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:56 am

whipped wrote:
The Dark Side of Will wrote:Racist. Do you think Teutonic Goths have a monopoly on going nuts and shooting people?
Of the last 20 or so school shootings - name one where the shooter was asian. Or black!

AFAIK they've all been white dudes who have been bullied and/or find their girlfriend with someone else.

Actually one of the last large school shootings, the incident at Dawson College in Montreal, the shooter was an East Indian fellow by the name of Kimveer Gill, an Asian. The funny part about that is he was also a "Teutonic Goth".

z.MacK · Post by **z.MacK** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:16 am

Damn this shit is so fuckin sad.

I can not really understand how someone can do this. They have to be totally fucked up mentally?!.

Thirty KIDS were killed.

I'm not religious, but my thoughts go out to those familys.

The Dark Side of Will · Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:12 am

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Racist. Do you think Teutonic Goths have a monopoly on going nuts and shooting people?

Not sure if it came through, but that was a joke...

Dirty Sanchez · Post by **Dirty Sanchez** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:15 am

Did anyone else here hear Dr. Phil blaming violent video games for this? How would Dr. Phil know this person's gaming habits when they don't even know who he is yet? :scratch: All the assholes are trying to blame everything and anything else but the guy who did this. They are talking about another "assault" weapons ban again and this guy used two handguns. People are just plain stupid, no wonder he was able to slaughter them like lambs. I bet none of them put up a fight as he lined them up to executed them. I would have figured I was dead anyway and thrown the closest object I could get my hands on at him to try and disarm him. I wouldn't have gone out with a whimper, I would have gone out fighting. At that point there wouldn't have been anything left to loose and who knows, maybe he could have been stopped that way too.

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:09 am

the reason the guy probably went around shooting was probably the same reason nobody fought back. people are so brain washed into not taking responsability for their own actions/lives. the shooter most likely blaimed everyone but himself for something and was upset enough about it to kill over. the people that didn't fight back expected someone else to come save them rather than risking themselves to save everyone else.

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:23 am

yes he was a student there

and for those turning this into a gun debate and wanting more strict gun laws.. well that wouldn't have helped this case in the least since the guns weren't legal anyways.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_ ... h_shooting

"A federal law enforcement official said Tuesday he had been told by other federal law enforcement officials that the two guns recovered in the shooting had had their serial numbers scraped off. "

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:43 am

Kohburn wrote:the reason the guy probably went around shooting was probably the same reason nobody fought back. people are so brain washed into not taking responsability for their own actions/lives. the shooter most likely blaimed everyone but himself for something and was upset enough about it to kill over. the people that didn't fight back expected someone else to come save them rather than risking themselves to save everyone else.

I'm normally the cynic... :salute:

I say that the reason people lined up for the slaughter is the same reason people were leaping out of windows.

PANIC.

Yeah, sure, throw a couple conceal/carries into a panicking mob of people. That would have averted the trajedy, right?

Indy · Post by **Indy** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:26 am

Mach10 wrote:
Yeah, sure, throw a couple conceal/carries into a panicking mob of people. That would have averted the trajedy, right?

Yeah, it probably would have. You don't just sign your name on a list and have a gun thrown at you. Most of that license is training, how to avoid panic in a situation like this. People who are concealed carrying are ready because that's what the responsiblity of carrying the gun requires.

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:29 am

Driving requires training and responsibility too... Good thing there aren't any more car-accidents...

Wait, what? :scratch:

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:45 am

Mach10 wrote:Driving requires training and responsibility too... Good thing there aren't any more car-accidents...

Wait, what? :scratch:

completely different standard. and yes driver training is a joke currently and needs improvement. I have a regular yearly speeding ticket but I don't get into accidents due to driver awareness and skill.

a properly trained concieled carry gun owner should be prepared for all but the most extreme cases.

its not the same as a general hunters safety course.

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:02 am

And well it shouldn't be.

I'm not against the ownership of guns (I'd be a hipocrite... I'm waiting delivery on a Savage 300win. Delivery in this case being "clearing Canada's Gun Reg.").

I *AM* firmly against carrying weapons. No sense being equivocable about it... I thought I should make it clear.

Without going into too long a tirade about it--since it doesn't apply to me or anywhere near my home--it boils down to this ideal of rights and ownership.

You are putting WAY too much faith in the ability of people to handle stressful and dangerous situations with rationality and restraint. The desire to posess these weapons blinds you to this.

There's this feeling of bravado and machissimo bullshit that makes people say "I wish I was there with my gun, i'd have stopped it!"

Which when you think about it is precisely why CCW permits shouldn't ever be issued.

The school shooting was many things. It was a procedural pooch-screw, a failiure of police to respond correctly, and a failiure of the university's administration to have a viable emergency plan.

But to play "monday morning quarterback" and suggest that the trajedy would have been averted by the addition of MORE uncertain variables... That's blind, and that's stupid. Guns don't solve problems, they escalate them. Eventually someone gets hurt or a case of dead, and it's a complete crapshoot as to whether it was a solution or not. On one hand, you might bring down the nutter. On the other, he might get the jump on you. Or you miss the nutter and hit someone else. Roll the dice, and pick one. You don't get another roll.

It's an N-body problem, and you can't predict the results no matter how much training or how ICE under pressure the individual is. Police deal with their firearms daily, and accidents happen. Friendly Fire in the military. All by highly trained and disciplined individuals with daily reinforcement training.

DiggityBiggity · Post by **DiggityBiggity** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:02 am

Kohburn wrote:
Mach10 wrote:Driving requires training and responsibility too... Good thing there aren't any more car-accidents...

Wait, what? :scratch:
completely different standard. and yes driver training is a joke currently and needs improvement. I have a regular yearly speeding ticket but I don't get into accidents due to driver awareness and skill.

a properly trained concieled carry gun owner should be prepared for all but the most extreme cases.

its not the same as a general hunters safety course.

Absolutely, concealed carry owners are way more responsible than some 18 year old taking a drivers exam.

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:16 am

DiggityBiggity wrote:Absolutely, concealed carry owners are way more responsible than some 18 year old taking a drivers exam.

http://www.packing.org/calendar/event/?event=4969
Oh, definitely more responsible than a driving test.

My driving instructor NEVER taught me how to clean my car. I had to figure that all out for m'self.

Passing a written test and a practical examiner watching you load, unload, clean, and safe your weapon doesn't make you physically, mentally, or emotionally equipped to deal with high-stress dangerous situations.

Go look at some of the Concealed/Carry fansites in the states, and tell me again how disciplined and calm these people are.

whipped · Post by **whipped** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:38 am

Dirty Sanchez wrote:Did anyone else here hear Dr. Phil blaming violent video games for this?

hahahahaha!!!

crzyone · Post by **crzyone** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:40 am

Mach, you have always been anti-gun.

When the bad guy has a gun and the good guy has none, the bad guy wins.

I have no problem with responsible adults carrying guns. You never hear of someone pulling out a gun and shooting somebody when they have it on them with a CCW. Never. It gives those individuals a chance to defend themselves when the situation arises.

Criminals love it when the public does not carry guns, makes them feel safe. Britain outlawed guns outright and their crime shot up. Guess they didn't have to worry about being shot when they rob or vandalize someone.

I feel for the families who lost someone in this. Hopefully this gets people to wake up and spot any more anti-social behavior.

Kids these days.... :uhoh:

Indy · Post by **Indy** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:44 am

Mach10 wrote:
DiggityBiggity wrote:Absolutely, concealed carry owners are way more responsible than some 18 year old taking a drivers exam.
http://www.packing.org/calendar/event/?event=4969
Oh, definitely more responsible than a driving test.

My driving instructor NEVER taught me how to clean my car. I had to figure that all out for m'self.

Passing a written test and a practical examiner watching you load, unload, clean, and safe your weapon doesn't make you physically, mentally, or emotionally equipped to deal with high-stress dangerous situations.

Go look at some of the Concealed/Carry fansites in the states, and tell me again how disciplined and calm these people are.

That wasn't even a CC class...

GT86 · Post by **GT86** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:45 am

Mach10 wrote:

Go look at some of the Concealed/Carry fansites in the states, and tell me again how disciplined and calm these people are.

I have a concealed carry permit, and I know many others who also have them. As with any group, there are some who tend to be irresponsible. But judging from those I have met, the vast majority who have gone through the process to legally carry concealed are far more responsible and careful with their weapons than people who do not carry. We know what the risks are, both physically and legally, and have accepted those risks in order to better equip ourselves for self defense. Look at the national numbers of CCW holders who have had their permits revoked, it is a very low percentage.

Many CCW holders, myself included, shoot on a regular basis, and attend training classes on our own initiative more often than non-carriers. Many of the shooters I associate with are safer (IMHO) than most police officers I have seen at the range. I've come across quite a few LEOs who only shoot for their qualifications, and have dismal marksmanship abilities and safety habits.

The simple fact is, there are millions of guns out there, many criminals are carrying them, and have the inclination to use them. Gun control laws will not change that. By denying law abiding people the right to carry, we are simply stacking the odds in favor of those who would commit acts such as the VA shooting.

What is so distasteful to you about letting people have the option to defend themselves? As this tragic incident clearly illustrates, gun control laws don't prevent these types of things, and it also illustrates the fallacy of the idea that the government can protect you.