The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

ericjon262 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:40 pm gold plated? damn, that's straight baller status, you trying to go F9 and put this into orbit or something? lol!

All seriousness, looking good! I'm hopefully going to tear into mine some tomorrow.
Thanks!

GM actually used the selective gold pins for production; not sure if that's because it's under the manifold and more labor intensive to maintain or what...

But like I always tell the idiots on FaceBalk: it only takes 10 minutes to pull the manifold...
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:05 am Thanks!

GM actually used the selective gold pins for production; not sure if that's because it's under the manifold and more labor intensive to maintain or what...

But like I always tell the idiots on FaceBalk: it only takes 10 minutes to pull the manifold...
I think we've had the conversation before... it blows my mind how many people freak out about the starter being under the intake like that...
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

ericjon262 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:17 pm
I think we've had the conversation before... it blows my mind how many people freak out about the starter being under the intake like that...
Especially the ones who DO NOT OWN anything powered by a Northstar...
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:08 am
ericjon262 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:17 pm
I think we've had the conversation before... it blows my mind how many people freak out about the starter being under the intake like that...
Especially the ones who DO NOT OWN anything powered by a Northstar...
to me, the biggest joke of it, is that it's a starter, not an oil filter or some other maintenance item that you regularly need to tend to. if you're going to bash an engine, bash it for it's actual faults.
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

ericjon262 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:50 am
The Dark Side of Will wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:08 am
ericjon262 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:17 pm
I think we've had the conversation before... it blows my mind how many people freak out about the starter being under the intake like that...
Especially the ones who DO NOT OWN anything powered by a Northstar...
to me, the biggest joke of it, is that it's a starter, not an oil filter or some other maintenance item that you regularly need to tend to. if you're going to bash an engine, bash it for it's actual faults.
Like the Subaru/Saw "Wanna play a game?" oil filter R&R.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:51 pm Like the Subaru/Saw "Wanna play a game?" oil filter R&R.
Pretty sure GM W body 3800's are god awful as well, IIRC, I had to take the passenger wheel and tire off to change the filter...
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Duramaxes mount the oil filter horizontally, and in the 4wd trucks, the oil spills all over the front driveshaft when the filter is removed.

At least the Northstar has a mostly vertical filter that's easy to access.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Getting started on wiring:

The valley harness, crank wire and starter cable have to be finalized in order to "flight install" the intake manifold. The valley harness connects the two knock sensors and crank sensor under the intake, as well as the cam sensor on the cylinder head, to a production break connector. The production break is at the back of the engine originally, but I re-loomed the harness in order to move it to the front for better packaging, shorter wire runs given my harness geometry and access.

I also wanted to start playing with workmanship items for harness build, including individual wire strain reliefs. 3/32" shrink tube is the right size to do that for 20-22AWG wire. This product is Raychem RNF-100, which has a max rated temp of 135C. 125C is required for engine bay use. The go-to product for engine bay use is Raychem DR-25, but that's only available in black--not good for this application.

I decided I'd cut off the old pins, install the shrink tube on the individual wires, install the blue seals for larger gauge wire, then crimp on a new pin. that way the strain relief would start way down inside the connector for best effect. Making sure I correctly provide for getting the resulting bundle through the right size of shrink tube was an exercise in activity sequence planning.

The selective gold pins I bought (left) vs. the ones GM used (right). Interdasting.
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Wires stripped, with shrink tube strain reliefs, ready for new seals and pins
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With seals and pins, ready for installation into the connector
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With connector installed
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Another In-process example of my gold pins vs. GM's
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In process photo of some wires with shrink tube strain reliefs and one without
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Photo of the same configuration from the back... blue and white seals visible
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This was a nice surprise: the secondary TPA has a nice snug fit on the individual wire strain reliefs. This could mean that I don't have to run them all the way into the seals in order for them to do the job of strain relief.
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Here's a connector with the bundle shrink tube installed on the bundle.
This one has 3/16 shrink on the bundle; the first bundle I did was the cam sensor. I completed all the pins and then found they wouldn't go through the 3/16 shrink so I had to upsize the shrink on that bundle to 1/4. I can feel the difference in stiffness of the same three wire bundles, one with snug 3/16 and one with loosish 1/4... The bundle with 1/4 is stiffer due to the larger diameter and thicker wall on the tube.
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Here's the harness with the sub-bundle shrink installed... you can see the bundles are shiny where the shrink is installed.
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Seals and terminals ready to rework the production break connector
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Production break connector primary TPA
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Mid-rework harness with the first piece of 3/8 shrink on the main bundle
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Wider view of same
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The whole thing done
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Closeup of the production break and twisted pairs that GM used for the knock sensors.
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Close up of a bunch of bundles
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More closeups of bundles
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Finished product in place
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More finished product in place
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Oil Filter Adapter
There's plenty of space between the end of the pipe bushing and the inside of the return passage; I could have milled the pressure sender boss down on the outside of the adapter and tapped it deeper and had everything come out fine. Oooops.

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Straight through to the port in the side of the block. There's some slop around the bolts, so I wanted to make sure this was correctly centered before I tightened the bolts down. They have threadlocker applied from GM; I didn't want to mess that up on a trial fit.

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Accessory Packaging
With the smaller CS130 alternator, I can move the top mount point in about an inch from where the stock one is, which makes 1/2" more clearance to the firewall. I don't need the extra clearance, so I probably won't do much/anything about it.
I could move it inboard even further if I clearanced the accessory bracket... that I already anodized.

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The basics of the NorthStar accessory drive

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Here's what I'm thinking this time around. That's the stock Cadillac tensioner, but rotated a bit over 90 degrees CCW from stock position. It pulls up. If I can mount an idler about where I'm holding this idler, then should be able to make this routing work.

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Here's a fit check of my fancy compressor fitting

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and another showing its relationship to the secondary compressor bracket. Don't mind the long bolt... that was just what I had on hand to locate the bracket.

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As I was packing up to go from my dad's house back to my house, I got a text from the Cerakote guy saying my parts were ready... so I detoured to pick them up. Pics next time.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

harness looks great! FWIW, a ~2006 truck alternator may fit better than whatever alternator that is. it looks like the mounting ears would be closer together. I have a core I can send your way if you want to try it out.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by pmbrunelle »

The twist rates appear to be the same between the different knock sensor pairs?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

pmbrunelle wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:20 pm The twist rates appear to be the same between the different knock sensor pairs?
GM twisted them... I would expect they do. Was that a question?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

ericjon262 wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:12 pm harness looks great! FWIW, a ~2006 truck alternator may fit better than whatever alternator that is. it looks like the mounting ears would be closer together. I have a core I can send your way if you want to try it out.
Most of the truck and similar alternators have mounting lugs about 120 degrees apart. I need one with mounting lugs 180 degrees apart.
I guess I could completely redesign the accessory bracket between the A/C comp and alternator... but why?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by pmbrunelle »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:59 am
pmbrunelle wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:20 pm The twist rates appear to be the same between the different knock sensor pairs?
GM twisted them... I would expect they do. Was that a question?
In one of the close-up photos, adjacent pairs seemed to be following closely, as if they were spooning with each twist. It looks from the photo view like there might be a mistake.

I was asking if a mistake is present (same twist rate).
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

pmbrunelle wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:11 pm
The Dark Side of Will wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:59 am
pmbrunelle wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:20 pm The twist rates appear to be the same between the different knock sensor pairs?
GM twisted them... I would expect they do. Was that a question?
In one of the close-up photos, adjacent pairs seemed to be following closely, as if they were spooning with each twist. It looks from the photo view like there might be a mistake.

I was asking if a mistake is present (same twist rate).
Adjacent twisted pairs with the same twist pitch/rate will look like that. Are saying that having them adjacent with the same twist rate is a mistake? Does that enhance cross-talk or noise coupling?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by CaptainHindsight »

The distance between the conductors and the dielectric between them determines their impedance. The tighter the twist the better the control of this.

https://www.trance-cat.com/electrical-c ... ulator.php

The tighter the twisting, the higher the supported transmission rate and the greater the cost per foot.

The signals are pretty low frequency on the knock sensors. Using twisted pairs even if impedance is not critical and the frequencies used is low it help reduce noise coupled from other sources. If the knock sensors use differential signalling that is another reason for the twisted pairs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_signalling
Last edited by CaptainHindsight on Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

CaptainHindsight wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:20 pm The distance between the conductors and the dielectric between them determines their impedance. The tighter the twist the better the control of this.

https://www.trance-cat.com/electrical-c ... ulator.php

The tighter the twisting, the higher the supported transmission rate and the greater the cost per foot.
I'm reasonably sure it's for noise rejection in this case.
Crank sensor wires used to be twisted pair in the '90's, when the sensor generated an analog signal which electronics elsewhere had to interpret. Modern crank sensors have the electronics in the sensor and output a digital signal. As a result the wires are no longer twisted pair... as you can see on my valley harness.
The knock sensors still have analog signals, so they need the twisted pair... but the frequencies they handle are in the kHz, so I can't see that impedance or transmission rate is at all critical for their operation.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by CaptainHindsight »

I'd have to put a scope on them to be sure but other knock sensors I've used are just On and Off. They open or close the internal contacts when a shock wave travels through them (the ping).

https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt580/slyt580.pdf

https://us.autologic.com/news/piezoelec ... ck-sensors

https://www.azosensors.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=50
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

CaptainHindsight wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:46 pm I'd have to put a scope on them to be sure but other knock sensors I've used are just On and Off. They open or close the internal contacts when a shock wave travels through them (the ping).

https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt580/slyt580.pdf

https://us.autologic.com/news/piezoelec ... ck-sensors

https://www.azosensors.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=50
They're piezo elements, right? I thought they were basically just microphones.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by CaptainHindsight »

Transducer/microphone/speaker all depends if you are going from mechanical to electrical or vice versa. Put current through them and they deform. Deform them with external pressure and they develop current.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelec ... pplication
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:01 am
ericjon262 wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:12 pm harness looks great! FWIW, a ~2006 truck alternator may fit better than whatever alternator that is. it looks like the mounting ears would be closer together. I have a core I can send your way if you want to try it out.
Most of the truck and similar alternators have mounting lugs about 120 degrees apart. I need one with mounting lugs 180 degrees apart.
I guess I could completely redesign the accessory bracket between the A/C comp and alternator... but why?
the later model alternator will directly interface with your PCM, and you may be able to shave a few more ounces out of the mounts. also, without knowing what alternator that is, it may be easier to source replacements when it fails with a later model alternator.
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
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