3800 Headers....

[jelly2m81]

That screams out budget ignorance.

Kinda like the welds on yours? Why bother pay anyone to do a quality weld when you can bubble gum your own.

Aaron, the self proclaimed " header genius ", yet he has yet to show any results on his world record for longest swap ever.

Aaron, fuck off smack talking anyone elses headers untill you prove how much better yours are compared to any other headers out there.

[Aaron]

That screams out budget ignorance.

Kinda like the welds on yours? Why bother pay anyone to do a quality weld when you can bubble gum your own.

Aaron, the self proclaimed " header genius ", yet he has yet to show any results on his world record for longest swap ever.

Aaron, fuck off smack talking anyone elses headers untill you prove how much better yours are compared to any other headers out there.

Maybe because the pretty welds have no functional value?

How are headers judged? By specifications. Mine have the specifications to outperform most every Fiero header I've seen, and certainly any Fiero header with the same specifications added to my motor. I've done more in terms of proof than any other Fiero header builder, I at least know and care about the specifications I'm using. And I'll even be glad to do a dyno test against any other header you provide and the stock manifolds, just pay fo the dyno time.

Oh, and I think Fierphrek has me beat on swap time. I had mine from running and driving with the 2.8l to running and driving with the 3.4l in under 3 months. I wasn't aware that was all that long, but I guess some of us value a master's degree a bit more than spending their life trying to make a 20 year old econo car fast. But keep going, someday your 3800 will have headers. That someone else built because you can't.

[p8ntman442]

AAron, did you ever think that doubling the exhaust volume and keeping the pipe the same size is actually benneficial? What your doing is doubling the velocity of the exhaust, while creating a scavenging low pressure area in the primaries after the port. This should only be done on headers with reletivly short primaries, and long secondaries without a lot of bends.

On the other hand it does create static pressure loss, and may reduce power at lower RPM's, but this is very dependant on how the transition is made.

Header design is very hard to do on Non FI engines because of the exhaust pulses. It adds a lot of variable, even I have not wrapped my head around because I havent built a set of headers. Then once you have the perfect setup figured out, you have to cram it into the fiero engine compartment. This is where most people go wrong, they start from the fitment issue and work back to primary lenght and diameter.

All that said, Aaron please stop commenting on header design/build quality. You have made your opinion to the people on this board, worthless. I dont claim to know a lot about header design, but fluid dynamics is something I work with, and have studdied, so I know enough to know when someone is talking like they know alot, and actually dont know jack shit.

[jelly2m81]

Lmao at Aaron, I don't even have an engine swapped Fiero, I can't recall anywhere where I said I still had one.

You expect me, or anyone else to pay for other headers for you to dyno test? Your the tool on here claiming this persons header is shit, that persons header is shit, but your's aren't. YOUR the guy that has something to prove, it's your call to compare headers on your engine if you want to claim yours are better than anyone elses. Stop looking for ways out, put up or shut up plain and simple.

Apparently from what you say, your car has been running for months, why no dyno charts? Oh wait, it's not finished yet.


Good for you on getting a master degree, hope that works out for you, I imagine I'll still be making a good living working on cars and "than spending their life trying to make a 20 year old econo car fast".
Meanwhile why your doing that, I'll sit here in my huge house with a bunch of new vehicles outside, my own buisness where I can choose which jobs I want or don't want to do... man life sure is tough....

[Boscolingus]

I appologize if this thread is getting out of hand, my intention was to gather ideas so that I could help to improve an existing product. Does anyone have the numbers for the header formula I posted earlier?

[jelly2m81]

I appologize if this thread is getting out of hand, my intention was to gather ideas so that I could help to improve an existing product. Does anyone have the numbers for the header formula I posted earlier?

Not your fault dude, we were trying to have an intelligent discussion untill Mr. headers decided to slam everyone elses products.

I have a suggestion on the Y pipe, I'm in a bit of a rush, but I'll post up about it later.

[V8Archie]

...

[Boscolingus]

Well since I interrupted with a comment I thought I'd reply and explain.

No I'm not V8Archie or have 80lbs of fat and cancerous tumors hanging over my belt. I don't like him what-so-ever he treated me absolutely horrible when I stopped at his shop with my L67 swap in 2004. Basically laughed at it, I did nothing at all to bring it on he's just a big fuckin retarded prick.

And I still lol @ wcf headers. The welds are absolutely horrible, I have had to reweld 3 cracked welds since I installed them less than 30k miles ago until I finally rewelded everything. I know bosco means well and is standing up for daddies junky products, but they are just that. I also cannot get the headers to seal very well.

I can take some pics of the crappy headers installed on my motor if you want.

For someone we dislikes V8Archie with such a passion, you seem to embelish him quite well. How is your lower exhaust supported? Did you attempt to call and resolve the issue? After welding them 3 times did it occur that something might be wrong? Perhaps the headers or your installation?

... Or should I get you a chair so that you can sit down while stirring the pot

Perhaps providing a Bill of Sale to warrant you claims, just a thought...

[V8Archie]

...

[Aaron]

Lmao at Aaron, I don't even have an engine swapped Fiero, I can't recall anywhere where I said I still had one.

Then better then the headers you built for your.....Well, any car actually.

You expect me, or anyone else to pay for other headers for you to dyno test? Your the tool on here claiming this persons header is shit, that persons header is shit, but your's aren't. YOUR the guy that has something to prove, it's your call to compare headers on your engine if you want to claim yours are better than anyone elses. Stop looking for ways out, put up or shut up plain and simple.

If you want to see the numbers, then yes. I'll put up dyno numbers, there's no doubt about that. I tell you what. I will rebuild the headers, at my cost, if I don't beat the 3.4 DOHC dyno record with less boost than the record holder (413whp at 13psi). All you need to do is provide specifications, since obviously you spent more time researching them then me.

I've already put up. Headers are judged by dimensions. There isn't another Fiero header made with better dimensions for its application. But we all know that shorty unequal length headers with no collectors are better, I mean there's a reason headers that good aren't even made for the LS1.

Apparently from what you say, your car has been running for months, why no dyno charts? Oh wait, it's not finished yet.

What's your point? Yah, it's a project. I'm sorry getting my Master's Degree takes priority over making my 20 year old car fast. Still faster than your's, even not finished, and not dynoed.

Good for you on getting a master degree, hope that works out for you, I imagine I'll still be making a good living working on cars and "than spending their life trying to make a 20 year old econo car fast".
Meanwhile why your doing that, I'll sit here in my huge house with a bunch of new vehicles outside, my own buisness where I can choose which jobs I want or don't want to do... man life sure is tough....

It will work out for me. Has so far. Bring one of your "new vehicles" up sometime, I'll whip your ass without the turbo. And if I don't, well then I'll put on some 3800 headers :scratch:

[jelly2m81]

LMAO at mr. header

Nice try to come back and try flaming more after we caught you in a lie.

My new cars I have now won't be new by the time you get your Fiero finished. Not only that, if I were to show up in a new car, you'll be driving your ( and I quote you) " 20 year old econobox".

Better make sure your car is real fast, we've been looking into C5 Z06's, but my wife and I really like the C6's body style better, fuck only knows what I may show up in.

You just can't let this tread follow it's intended course, can you? I'll tell you what, I'll let you have the last "flame", I'll only post relevant stuff in here pertaining to the relevance of this tread from now on. I don't want to look as big an ass as what you are.

Keep working at your 20 year old econobox, I'm having a hell of a laugh at someone spending that much time and effort into a car and when it's all said and done it's still a Fiero.

LOL

[Aaron]

You'll need a lot more than a C5 Z06 or a C6. Hell the SS Camaro walked a C6, they aren't fast.

But let's get back to the headers. How are mine not better then every other Fiero header made? Since you know so much about headers, surely you know why mine aren't good and how I could fix them.

[Sinister Fiero]

I have to agree with Jelly on the fitment issue. I have installed more than a couple of sets of these headers in my swaps and I too have had the same issues -- crossover pipe being too short. I did have in one instance with coated parts where the crossover pipe was 1/4" too short! My suggestion is to do what GM does with all their crossover pipes -- install an expansion joint. You can use a flex or slip fit connection; whatever you want. If you are going to use one of those flex pieces, make sure it has the internal slip fit connection so the flex section isn't exposed to hot exhaust gases. It also helps it flow better too.

The other problem I have seen with ALL WCF headers is the y-pipe 2-into-1 collector is only 2.5" at the outlet. Can we get a 3" collector version for those wanting bigger exhaust? Seems stupid to me to have 2x 2.25" pipes going down to one 2.5" collector when a 3" would be more appropriate. It would also be nice to have an alternative crossover pipe available for those people who don't need to run a catalytic coverter; one that exits out the rear of the engine/transmission and clears the rear trunk. Just a thought.

I also think the welds inside some of the header collectors of the WCF headers I have worked with could have been done better. For the price you pay for these headers I think WCF could have gotten out the die grinder and knocked down some of those globbed-on welds inside the collector to improve flow.

As far as the equal length primary tubes are concerned, I think too many people make this into something more than it really is. Equal length headers are not going to add 50hp vs. non-equal length units. As long as you make sure the size primary tubing you use is large enough for the application and there are no bottlenecks, then non-equal length units will work fine. Would equal length primary tubes be better? Sure; if you have the room to use them and the funds to cover the extra cost. But I don't think they are absolutely necessary to make good power. I have never seen any dyno comparo tests that showed equal length headers made even 10% more power than non-equal length headers of the same size and overall length.

-ryan

[Aaron]

As far as the equal length primary tubes are concerned, I think too many people make this into something more than it really is. Equal length headers are not going to add 50hp vs. non-equal length units. As long as you make sure the size primary tubing you use is large enough for the application and there are no bottlenecks, then non-equal length units will work fine. Would equal length primary tubes be better? Sure; if you have the room to use them and the funds to cover the extra cost. But I don't think they are absolutely necessary to make good power. I have never seen any dyno comparo tests that showed equal length headers made even 10% more power than non-equal length headers of the same size and overall length.

-ryan

I agree with most of this. The cost and fitment are a priority over performance. The header won't do any good if it doesn't fit. There's no doubt about that.

But let's look at my case, where the header is custom designed, one-off. Fitment is an issue, however by design I was able to easily fit, in proper dimensions, an equal length header on both sides. I think that I could design, build, and install a dimensionally appropriate equal length header on most any common Fiero engine swap, including the N*/SBC/LSX. So while I haven't done this, I'm pretty sure I could, and if anyone's willing to pay the money it'd cost, I'd do it. But let's not go into that argument.

Then cost. Again, in my situation, it isn't really an issue, as the only higher price is the price of piping, which was negligibly more expensive, maybe $40-$50 at most. However if I were to be designing the header for a business or a customer, the price would be much higher, as equal length primaries add an enormous amount of time and work to the design and building phase.

As for the power, that's where I kind of disagree. The shorty style headers on a LS1 F-body have shown to not gain any power over the stock manifolds. Whereas the long tube, equal length headers from all brands have shown increases of 20-25rwhp. This is a big gain, definitely enough to feel. As for the mid length, non-equal headers for the LS1, I couldn't find any dyno numbers, because no one buys them :scratch:

To summarize, I can see why companies don't offer LTs for a 3800 Fiero. The market isn't there. But for a one-off, custom application where time doesn't equal money, there's no reason not to, and plenty of reason to build them LT equal length. And for a market as big as the LS1 F-body, the LTs are the only headers that sell. And sure you can always make decent numbers on a non equal length header, I mean the new Z06 makes 505hp on cast manifolds. But there's more power to be had with LTs. I think there would be quite a market for a LT equal length header for the 3800 W-body, but the price of production would be really high, especially when you can put on a smaller pulley and pray KR doesn't blow a hole in a piston for $100.

[Sinister Fiero]

As for the power, that's where I kind of disagree. The shorty style headers on a LS1 F-body have shown to not gain any power over the stock manifolds. Whereas the long tube, equal length headers from all brands have shown increases of 20-25rwhp. This is a big gain, definitely enough to feel. As for the mid length, non-equal headers for the LS1, I couldn't find any dyno numbers, because no one buys them :scratch:

What are you comparing? Shorty style; non equal length headers to long tube, equal length headers? Of course you are going to see a difference favoring the long tubes. But go back and compare some of the well documented comparo tests between shorty and long tube (neither being equal length tubes) headers done for previous generation engines and you will ALWAYS find the long tubes produce better numbers. So what are you comparing? Are you comparing long tubes to short tubes or are you comparing equal length to non-equal length?

In order to do a fair comparison test you would need to compare equal length shorty and long tube headers in a dyno test. Then compare equal length to non equal length of shorty and long tube sets of headers to each other. I'd bet the results are not going to favor the equal length headers as much as you think they will.

[Aaron]

The LT LS1 headers are all equal length. The shorty headers are not equal length. I can't of course say what it is, but between the LT and equal length design, they pick up an easy 20-25rwhp.

None of the 3800 headers are equal length, or long tube on even 1 primary.

[Sinister Fiero]

The LT LS1 headers are all equal length. The shorty headers are not equal length. I can't of course say what it is, but between the LT and equal length design, they pick up an easy 20-25rwhp.

None of the 3800 headers are equal length, or long tube on even 1 primary.

If you go back a few years and look at the multiple magazine articles featuring dyno comparo tests between non-equal length shorty and non-equal length long tube headers; the long tubes always produce the better peak numbers. So you can't simply use your comparison between non-equal length shorty and equal length long tube headers as a basis for an arguement that says equal length primary tubes is the reason for the power increase. Those magazine articles I cited earlier prove that the power gains come from long tubes alone. The $20,000 question is how much more power does equal length tubes net you? I haven't seen any dyno tests published that have shown big gains; in fact, I cannot remember reading any such article that showed big gains at all. You have to assume the tests were done. But the lack of published comparo tests leads one to believe the gains weren't all that big.

I think this is just one of those instances where header companies just use the equal tube length headers as a selling point and an excuse to charge more money for a set of headers. The same thing is done all the time with aftermarket ignition components that most people don't need (ie: MSD, Crane, etc). Just because a 1500hp professional drag car uses them doesn't mean they are going to be worth buying for your car. You need to remember that professional drag race car builders are always looking to gain 1 or 2 more HP just to give them that extra edge on the track. So just because they will spend thousands of dollars on the upgrade doesn't mean it would be a wise investment for you to make as well. But hey, it's your car and you can buy what you want for it. Doesn't make any difference to me. My car is still fast enough, even with all its stock parts, to beat other cars that have much more money invested (mostly in useless upgrades) in them.

[Boscolingus]

I have since left this thread as, like all other threads involving the word "Fiero", has in my opinion turned to shit.

Sinister, there are several different configurations available for primary diameter, cross over diameter, outlet diameter, as well as fastening designs ( clamps vs. 3 bolt flanges ) along with material types and coatings. All choices are listed on the WCF 3800 Header page

It just happens to be that 95% of those that order the headers always get the 3 bolt flanged, 1 5/8" primary, 2.5" collector.

[AkursedX]

Sinister, there are several different configurations available for primary diameter, cross over diameter, outlet diameter, as well as fastening designs ( clamps vs. 3 bolt flanges ) along with material types and coatings. All choices are listed on the WCF 3800 Header page

I took this right from the WCF website:

These headers are designed to fit the 3800 BUICK that has been retrofit into the Fiero. This places the exhaust outlet in the same area as the stock Fiero exhaust.

These headers are standard 1-1/2" primary or can be custom ordered 1-5/8" 16 gauge head pipes with 3/8" thick flanges or marmon clamps. The "Y" pipe is made of 2", 16 gauge tubing and is connected to the 2-1/2" "Y" pipe collector with a 2-1/2" 3 bolt flange.

These headers will give your engine significant torque increases in the 1500 to 5500 rpm range.

The exhaust system on the Stock 3800 exits on the wrong side of the motor. These headers solve the problem of Catalytic and Muffler installation.

These headers are now available for purchase with Marmen Clamps (pictured below) in place of the 3-Bolt flange for an additional charge. Please specify when ordering.


This Header System comes shipped as raw metal. They may be painted with high-temperature paint by installer.

I see a mention of either 1-1/2" or 1-5/8" Primaries, but it only mentions 2" for the y-pipe and 2-1/2" for the collector. I didn't know that you could order those dimensions larger. To be honest, I don't think I would have used them, but I would have been a hell of alot more interested if I would have known that I could have got 1-5/8" primaries with a 2-1/2" Y-pipe and 3"collector.

[The Dark Side of Will]

As far as the equal length primary tubes are concerned, I think too many people make this into something more than it really is. Equal length headers are not going to add 50hp vs. non-equal length units. As long as you make sure the size primary tubing you use is large enough for the application and there are no bottlenecks, then non-equal length units will work fine. Would equal length primary tubes be better? Sure; if you have the room to use them and the funds to cover the extra cost. But I don't think they are absolutely necessary to make good power. I have never seen any dyno comparo tests that showed equal length headers made even 10% more power than non-equal length headers of the same size and overall length.

-ryan

I'm sure I don't have to tell you how headers operate. Just remember that they affect the shape of the VE curve. So different length tubes will bias the VE curves of different cylinders to different RPM. This means that some cylinders will ALWAYS be running lean and some will ALWAYS be rich, even when the engine or bank as a whole is stoich. These variations in mixture can't be tuned out because they aren't constant across the RPM range. You've done a lot of tuning, you know how important correct mixture is to good engine running and health...