Switching to hydrogen....

whipped · Post by **whipped** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:05 pm

A number of these threads popped up on OE recently, and I have given some thought to converting the grand prix to alternative fuel (homebrew ethanol or H2 or propane or something..... mainly because I don't care if it blows up, in fact I want it to.) But here's my idea.....

First, I thought the ideal solution would be to generate hydrogen at home (using the grid), compressing it and storing it in metal hydride tanks (in vehicle). This would allow higher densities than liquified or pressurized tanks, while still being "safe" with respect to punctures and crashes causing leaks and explosions.

However, metal hydride tanks are expensive, on the order of $8000+ for 4 tanks that would get a reasonable amount of mileage. Second, hydrogen generation at home would have to be purified before and after compression to eliminate oxygen and other contaminants, which adds to the complexity and cost.

Then I thought about ethanol, and ran the math, and basically it boils down to homebrew ethanol not being cost effective unless you have unlimited access to trees to distill the mix, and/or free sugar.

Then the conspiracy nuts gave me an idea. They claim that running an electrolysis cell off your alternator will give you 1000 mpg. Obviously not true, but water is a good source of hydrogen. So, what if you were to generate the hydrogen in-car?

A number of sources say that a gallon of gasoline has about 40 kwh worth of energy. That's a bigass battery. But, think about this - most driving is city driving, and <20 miles. If you can fit a 40kwh battery in there, you could recharge your battery after every drive, and never have to fill up again. I'm sure with careful searching, a lithium or nimh battery pack could be built for a reasonable amount of coin. Add an electrolysis cell, a high rate SMPS charger and PWM controller and you've got a hydrogen vehicle. FWIW, costco has a 1kwh deep cycle battery for $50 (not including fees) and is probably about 60# (teh suck).

Using a 90% conversion efficiency, I think it works out to about $4/gal "equivalent". They say we'll be above that by the end of the summer, so the time to start building is now. Fit a solar charger, and you're ahead of the game.

hydrogen has a huge range of flammability, and some other interesting properties:
http://www.fisita.com/students/congress ... s/sc06.pdf

Thoughts/comments/ideas on where to steal a battery?

lucky · Post by **lucky** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:02 am

We did a homebrew electrolysis setup in my freshman chem class. It
worked beautifully and was very simple, but was a really slow process, and we were using a 100 amp battery charger.
Unless you're gonna run something like a 200amp alt with 0/1 cable to your trunk I don't think it's viable as a homebuilt alternative fuel source.

Nashco · Post by **Nashco** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:42 am

If you're scheming this up thinking you're going to save a buck, you're already way, way off track.

40 kwh battery for a reasonable amount of coin that doesn't weigh a ton? How many thousand bucks do you want to spend on a pack? 90% conversion efficiency? Solar charger? Man, you've been reading to many conspiracy theories. It'd be a hell of a lot less work and more fun to ride your bike to work. Hell, ride a motorcycle...burn 50% or less fuel, go faster, and have way more fun than you were in your car. That is, if you're man enough.

Seriously, it's a hell of a lot easier to reduce consumption by changing your driving habits/style.

Bryce

Unsafe At Any Speed · Post by **Unsafe At Any Speed** » Wed May 28, 2008 2:03 am

I'd agree that you best bet is to get a bike (motorized or not). If it makes you feel any better, I just filled up this past weekend at $4.33 a gallon. I get around 16 mpg in the V and it's like 16 miles to work one way. So just to get there and back I'm spending $9 a day. :cussing:

teamlseep13 · Post by **teamlseep13** » Wed May 28, 2008 2:15 am

Why not just forget about a fuel at all and built a completely electric car? If you are using it for just around town driving, charging overnight would be ample time.
Hydrogen isn't worth anything unless its in a fuel cell, burning it isn't worth the trouble when ethanol is much easier to make, come by or steal.

Unsafe At Any Speed · Post by **Unsafe At Any Speed** » Wed May 28, 2008 2:24 am

Or just crawl under people's cars, cut the fuel lines and have gas for free...

The Dark Side of Will · Wed May 28, 2008 8:07 am

Hydrogen is a grossly inefficient means of energy transport. What did you add in for the energy costs of compressing it?

Water is everywhere because it's a stable molecule. Liberating hydrogen from it takes a good bit of energy.

Buy a TDI VW and run it on cooking oil.

Get another Fiero and swap it over to DI Ecotec power. The Northstar is a great engine, but not for gas mileage.

befarrer · Post by **befarrer** » Wed May 28, 2008 8:32 pm

Or you could push your Fiero everywhere while making engine noises.

I get 37MPG in my Fiero doing 120KM/h on the highway. Havent recorded less than 30MPG (I think the lowest is 32), but most of my driving is highway.

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Fri May 30, 2008 3:43 pm

Hydrogen and Ethanol aren't the ANSWERS, but they are starts. Anything that isn't petroleum is worth a shot at least temporarily.

whipped · Post by **whipped** » Fri May 30, 2008 3:48 pm

What we need are better batteries. Lead acid is so 1802.

The Dark Side of Will · Fri May 30, 2008 4:27 pm

A carbon neutral chemical energy transport technology would probably be fine. Ethanol is essentially solar energy in a chemical transport medium.

It would be interesting to see what we could do if we ran all of our trash through thermal depolymerization plants to make light crude. Certainly wouldn't solve any supply issues, but might make a dent.

It's gradually becoming more economical to pursue oil reserves like oil shale that companies weren't even dreaming of going after 20 or 30 years ago.

The ultimate solution (nuclear fusion) is going to have to transcend the current ideas of renewable/non-renewable. It will be essentially limitless. We're 25 years from practical fusion. We've been 25 years from practical fusion for the last 50 years.

whipped · Post by **whipped** » Fri May 30, 2008 5:14 pm

The Dark Side of Will wrote:A carbon neutral chemical energy transport technology would probably be fine. Ethanol is essentially solar energy in a chemical transport medium.

It would be interesting to see what we could do if we ran all of our trash through thermal depolymerization plants to make light crude. Certainly wouldn't solve any supply issues, but might make a dent.

It's gradually becoming more economical to pursue oil reserves like oil shale that companies weren't even dreaming of going after 20 or 30 years ago.

The ultimate solution (nuclear fusion) is going to have to transcend the current ideas of renewable/non-renewable. It will be essentially limitless. We're 25 years from practical fusion. We've been 25 years from practical fusion for the last 50 years.

I bet a typical family could make 4 gallons of oil a week if they did it. I don't understand why they don't. Trash is free. All they need is heat to turn it into black gold. Imagine how much they would save in terms of landfill costs. Waste would probably be reduced 100x and what's left would probably be metal scraps.

ITER is coming online in 2016? The polywell fusor is promising and I think could be operational soon given enough funding for research.

Blue Shift · Post by **Blue Shift** » Fri May 30, 2008 9:54 pm

Unsafe At Any Speed wrote:I'd agree that you best bet is to get a bike (motorized or not). If it makes you feel any better, I just filled up this past weekend at $4.33 a gallon. I get around 16 mpg in the V and it's like 16 miles to work one way. So just to get there and back I'm spending $9 a day. :cussing:

I work about 44.5 miles away, almost 90 miles a day for me. Even with the 2.5 on $4.10 piss water I'm spending more than that a day for fuel. I have half the mind to get a CRX, gut it, and put in the smallest, most efficient engine Honda made. Or get the CVCC carbed one.

Fastback86 · Post by **Fastback86** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:40 pm

whipped wrote:What we need are better batteries. Lead acid is so 1802.

Super capacitors FTW.

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Fri May 30, 2008 11:33 pm

There is a late 80s prelude on craigslist near me for $300, can you say gutted on 60psi steelies?

Everyone goes well "its not better than gas so its not worth it" petroleum is very good at what we use it for, thats probably why every car was built to run on it, unfortunately we need to take some set-backs and try something else.

(I say this as I work on a 93 octane 3800 swap... hypocrite)

The Dark Side of Will · Sat May 31, 2008 10:51 am

If ethanol were allowed to emerge from underneath gasoline as its own commodity, it might be able to undercut the gasoline price enough that the cost per mile is less even with the mileage hit. At that point ethanol will be viable.

But in an effort to build ethanol production, Congress mandated that all gasoline contain 10% ethanol. Because of the volume of gasoline produced, that requirement dominates the ethanol market and effectively ties the price of ethanol to the price of gasoline. Once that mistake is rectified, ethanol might actually be a good choice.

whipped · Post by **whipped** » Sat May 31, 2008 11:26 am

At this point it doesn't matter if it's mandated or not. It is something like $2.70/gal. They would be stupid to not cut $4.00/gal gasoline with something cheaper.

The Dark Side of Will · Sat May 31, 2008 5:15 pm

What I meant is that the prices fluctuate in synch.

lucky · Post by **lucky** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:02 am

I've been thinkin about this... think it would be feasible to use a homebrew electrolysis setup in-car with a vacuum line and check valve rigged to suck the H2 generated directly into the intake air? You'd still have to have your gas or ethanol or whatever in the tank, but theoretically couldn't you taper off the gas? Or would it just function more like NO2 as a power adder?

Blue Shift · Post by **Blue Shift** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:27 am

lucky80 wrote:I've been thinkin about this... think it would be feasible to use a homebrew electrolysis setup in-car with a vacuum line and check valve rigged to suck the H2 generated directly into the intake air? You'd still have to have your gas or ethanol or whatever in the tank, but theoretically couldn't you taper off the gas? Or would it just function more like NO2 as a power adder?

You'll never make enough H2/O2 to fuel even the smallest engine. Plus where's the energy coming from? Electrolysis sucks for efficiency. It also sucks to make work correctly due to nasty issues with electrode corrosion. I once made enough hydrogen/oxygen mix to fuel a tiny torch for a 10 or 15 seconds - after 15 minutes of pumping 12V though several square feet of electrode area, separated by a couple thicknesses of paper towel (they were oxidized to uselessness afterwards)...Try hooking your car battery charger to two electrodes of reasonable size, and dropping them into water. If you're really impatient, add something to increase the conductivity of the water. You'll probably give up on the idea. With tap water, you need massive amounts of electrode surface area.

With noble metal plated electrodes, you could possibly sandwitch a porous material and the two electrodes, and roll it up to make a reasonably sized cell, and feed it water with like, sodium hydroxide or something to bring the conductivity waaaay up so you can flow enough current to make a decent amount of output. It'll output mixed O2/H2 gas at a stoich mix.