The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

[The Dark Side of Will]

can you change cams with the engine in the car?

Not super fun, but doable. GM makes an elaborate tool to reach down through the timing drive compartment to keep the tensioner from extending when the sprocket is removed from the cam. Alternatively, I can remove my new accessory drive bracket, unbolt the front cover and swing it out of the way in order to have access to pin the tensioner from the wheel house. I *might* have to pull the crank pulley for that as well, which would mean that I could then remove the front cover completely.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Didn't get much done over the holidays.

Now that I have my throttle adapter to a high level of development, I'm checking the 90 degree rotation of the throttle with the gearbox up. This makes the bolt patterns very easy to deal with... now if there's just clearance between the motor and the fuel rail in that orientation, it'll be great. I'm pretty sure with the gearbox down, the gearbox would interfere with the water manifold and the motor would hit the water neck, but I'll take a look next weekend.

The LH2 throttle bolt pattern is square and incompatible with the '95-'99 Northstar manifold in "square" orientations... so if I were to use that one, I'd have to install it at a weird angle. Maybe if I can't quite hit 350 at wheels, I'll give that a shot.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Still dorking with the throttle.

It widely clears the coolant neck and fuel rail with the gearbox up. The boss for the "far side" pivot of the throttle shaft interferes with the "coolant lobe" on the water manifold.

Don't you have a second water manifold with the coolant lobe cut off? Why, yes, yes I do. However, I inspected it more closely and the wall separating the coolant to the block and the coolant from the cylinder head kicks over where it's below the "lobe". This means that the passage flow area stays sort of constant through the area with the lobe, which forces some of the coolant flow up into the lobe. This is good from a heat exchange perspective, but not good if you cut the lobe off and intend to weld a lid on in its place, as that reduces the flow area of coolant to the right/rear bank. Suck.

I think the thing that's finally going to work will be to use the '95-'99 throttle spacer, THEN a throttle adapter, THEN the LS4 throttle.
This means a completely different adapter design to bolt to the stock throttle spacer.

[Shaun41178(2)]

With 67 pages it's way too long to go back through it all so I'm not gonna

Why are you insisting on using a dbw tb? Your spending countless hours on planning and implementation of just this one part of the swap. What's the benefit over a cable driven tb?

[ericjon262]

With 67 pages it's way too long to go back through it all so I'm not gonna

Why are you insisting on using a dbw tb? Your spending countless hours on planning and implementation of just this one part of the swap. What's the benefit over a cable driven tb?

he has a 58x crankshaft, which was only used DBW with a factory ECU. the 58x controller is also more well supported in the aftermarket.

[Shaun41178(2)]

So who tunes the Shelby computer? Can hptuner software work with the stock computer you have or the Shelby one?

I prob would have gone standalone with that 58x crank unless anyone can modify the ecm your using easily

[The Dark Side of Will]

Since I now have a 58x crank trigger and 4x cam trigger, I can use pretty much any computer across GM's lineup. In fact that's been an ongoing conversation with Ryan/Sinister. Looks like we're going with a 2006 Corvette ECM since it's used in manual transmission applications while the '06 Caddy ECM is not.

DBW gives perfect idle control without an IAC and perfect cruise control with no cruise servo. OEM's also use it for traction & stability control, but I don't plan to do that.

Anybody with HPTuners can tune the Shelby ECM. The actual hardware is an 0411 computer, which is very common with LS1's. The .bin is a "98 Oldsmobile Shelby" and can be downloaded from AllData or similar. It's also old tech. ICMs, crank sensors, etc... all getting hard to find.

The '93-'05 Northstars have the crank position sensors on the front of the block where they are impossible to access, but also exposed to road grime and exhaust heat. For '06 ('04 for the RWD engines) GM dropped the dual sensors and moved a single sensor similar to the LS sensors into the valley, where it's clean, protected and actually easy to access, since removing the manifold takes ~10 minutes.

[Shaun41178(2)]

I guess Ryan can set up a base tune for you but since you can use the Corvette computer any shop familiar with HP tuners can do a custom Dyno tune for you. That makes things simple

[ericjon262]

I guess Ryan can set up a base tune for you but since you can use the Corvette computer any shop familiar with HP tuners can do a custom Dyno tune for you. That makes things simple

it also offers a fairly extreme level of future proofing to the car, the 58x PCM's can handle VVT and even DI.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I guess Ryan can set up a base tune for you but since you can use the Corvette computer any shop familiar with HP tuners can do a custom Dyno tune for you. That makes things simple

The software architecture is common enough across all 58x apps that HPT can tune basically any 58x apps... yes, even Caddies.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I guess Ryan can set up a base tune for you but since you can use the Corvette computer any shop familiar with HP tuners can do a custom Dyno tune for you. That makes things simple

it also offers a fairly extreme level of future proofing to the car, the 58x PCM's can handle VVT and even DI.

Some can... not the one I'll be using. One of the features of the native manual trans ECM is clutch awareness. The '06/'07 Corvette ECM is old enough that it still uses a clutch *switch*, which I already installed. The later ECMs use a clutch pedal *position sensor* which would take more effort to install... although probably not actually that much effort, since I do still have to install a DBW pedal anyway.

One of the things I'll have to figure out is how to implement a "bus gateway" to convert functions implemented via discrete wires in the Fiero into bus messages for the ECM. Those include A/C request & cruise control switches.

In the Corvette app, VSS, clutch switch and even trans fluid temperature are direct wired to the ECM. There's an oil temperature & level switch in the system someplace as well, so I can likely log both engine and trans oil temps via Torque, which is cool.

[pmbrunelle]

One of the things I'll have to figure out is how to implement a "bus gateway" to convert functions implemented via discrete wires in the Fiero into bus messages for the ECM. Those include A/C request & cruise control switches.

Maybe one of those Arduino boards with a CAN peripheral?

Do you only have to convert wire signals to CAN messages, or do you also have to perform conversions in the reverse direction?

Are the contents of the AC, cruise (and others) CAN messages well-documented enough such that a 3rd party could duplicate them?

[ericjon262]

I guess Ryan can set up a base tune for you but since you can use the Corvette computer any shop familiar with HP tuners can do a custom Dyno tune for you. That makes things simple

it also offers a fairly extreme level of future proofing to the car, the 58x PCM's can handle VVT and even DI.

Some can... not the one I'll be using. One of the features of the native manual trans ECM is clutch awareness. The '06/'07 Corvette ECM is old enough that it still uses a clutch *switch*, which I already installed. The later ECMs use a clutch pedal *position sensor* which would take more effort to install... although probably not actually that much effort, since I do still have to install a DBW pedal anyway.

One of the things I'll have to figure out is how to implement a "bus gateway" to convert functions implemented via discrete wires in the Fiero into bus messages for the ECM. Those include A/C request & cruise control switches.

In the Corvette app, VSS, clutch switch and even trans fluid temperature are direct wired to the ECM. There's an oil temperature & level switch in the system someplace as well, so I can likely log both engine and trans oil temps via Torque, which is cool.

I wasn't saying that they all did, but your crank and cam position sensor arrangements should support DI on one PCM or another.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I wasn't saying that they all did, but your crank and cam position sensor arrangements should support DI on one PCM or another.

Too bad the engine doesn't

A VVT Northstar would certainly be fun... One that would fit in a Fiero probably needs to be built from the ground up using a FWD block with RWD lower crank case and cylinder heads... and some fussy custom work to get the VVT oil up to the cam phasors.

[ericjon262]

Too bad the engine doesn't

A VVT Northstar would certainly be fun... One that would fit in a Fiero probably needs to be built from the ground up using a FWD block with RWD lower crank case and cylinder heads... and some fussy custom work to get the VVT oil up to the cam phasors.

oil to the cam phasers probably isn't too hard, I'd be willing to bet I could make it work. the real question is how much oil do they need to function. My initial thought is that it wouldn't need a whole lot, but then I remember that every VVT engine's oil pump that I have seen is HUGE.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Too bad the engine doesn't

A VVT Northstar would certainly be fun... One that would fit in a Fiero probably needs to be built from the ground up using a FWD block with RWD lower crank case and cylinder heads... and some fussy custom work to get the VVT oil up to the cam phasors.

oil to the cam phasers probably isn't too hard, I'd be willing to bet I could make it work. the real question is how much oil do they need to function. My initial thought is that it wouldn't need a whole lot, but then I remember that every VVT engine's oil pump that I have seen is HUGE.

The RWD oil pump is larger than the FWD oil pump and the pipe that feeds the VVT mechanisms is fairly large, but I don't have one to measure.

The supercharged engine's oil pump is larger yet, but it also has to supply piston cooling oil jets.

[The Dark Side of Will]

This is the only angle at which this works. Note that I have the first modified water manifold here, with the intact coolant lobe. This is the '04-'06 LH2 RWD throttle. The lower left bolt hole on the throttle needs to rotate just enough to clear the counterbore for the bolt that holds the plate to the manifold.

[Honest Don]

Seems workable.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Seems workable.

The blank for the latest adapter is with the laser cutter now... I have drill next weekend, but should be able to play with it on the 1/29-1/30 weekend.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Ordered custom plug wires from Magnecor today. They're working up a quote and will get back to me.
The lower row of coils goes to the front bank with 45 degree boots at the coil. The upper row of coils loops around and goes to the rear bank with 90 degree boots. Hope that doesn't blow too many minds over there.