If one were going to buy an '88 Formula for track duty....

[AkursedX]

What mods would you do?

And I'm not talking about engine swaps and power upgrades. I'm talking more about reliability/survivability stuff to start with. Here's kind of a progressive list of how I would go about things things (assuming all the suspension bits are good):

-Aluminum 3-core radiator
-upgraded cooling fan
-high volume oil pump,
-oil cooler (any ideas or examples as to how it's done)
-track brake pads (Porterfields more than likely) and stainless hoses
-a/c removal
-removal of the lower part of the decklid vents
-7730 ecm with egr delete with a possible switch to a 3.1 or 3.4 block to switch to DIS and to get rid of the distributor and connected ignition issues.

I didn't bring up suspension or tires as I actually have some pretty serious changes that would come about over time. My friend who owns Btek Fabrications is really interested in this potential project and we talked last weekend about some interesting changes.

I'm not 100% on this yet, but I might be picking up an '88 formula t-top for a very good price. If I go through with this, I'll probably keep my 3800-turbo and commit myself to a life of Fiero-dom.......

[The Dark Side of Will]

I was actually going to make recommendations for the suspension and brakes

The '88 weakness is the front hub bearings.
The AutoZone front hub bearings are scrap right out of the box. This thread discusses that failure, but is also getting some intelligent discussion from the principal of e-bearing: http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum2/HTML/108566.html

In this thread, I collected info from BubbaJoe about using an old school FWD rear hub with dual tapered rollers to replace the '88 front hub. This converts the bolt pattern to 5x4.75 and would allow the use of unmodified C4 Corvette rotors and C5 wheels. Once the bearing hub is figured out, the rest of the package goes together easily.
http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum2/HTML/116656.html

Of the items you've listed, the only thing I'd actually do would be the brake pads. The '87+ 2.8 blocks across GM's product line received improved oiling systems and don't suffer anything close to the failure rate that the early engines do. A high volume pump might drain the sump during extended high RPM use. The stock cooling system, stock ignition, etc. are perfectly adequate for stock power levels, if properly maintained. On a track car, this might mean pre-emptive replacement of the ignition module every season, for example.

Don't know why you'd remove the A/C... it really doesn't weigh anything and makes the car so much nicer to drive to/from track days.

I wouldn't make a T-top car a track whore. For one, it's fairly rare. If you booger it up, you've smashed a rare car. Also, the T-top conversion cut out the original overhead steel and rivetted the T-top frame in its place. This compromises chassis stiffness and strength.

If you want an easy/quick engine swap, go all the way to a 3400 or non-VVT 3500. The 3500 will get you 210 HP stock while being 25# lighter than the 2.8 and having modern reliability and ignition. The iron head 3.4 isn't worth the trouble.

[Shaun41178(2)]

I would look into modifying the oil pan for more capacity. I have an oil cooler and remote filter setup on my engine. Not hard to do. I have pics if you need them.

Larger brakes are a must, but not sure what your rules would allow.

If you want or have to stick with the iron heads, you can at least do a rebuild on a 3400 roller block, but use iron head pistons in it.

[The Dark Side of Will]

-oil cooler (any ideas or examples as to how it's done)

Actually, I would do this too.

Z34 Luminas and some older Corvettes used a nifty oil/water heat exchanger that mounted to the oil filter boss on the block. The oil filter then mounted to the cooler. You'd have to plumb your heater core circuit to it, but that's not hard.

Being a factory cooler, it doesn't have huge capacity, but it's pretty reliable. A 2.8 doesn't need a huge oil cooler anyway.

[AkursedX]

I was actually going to make recommendations for the suspension and brakes

The '88 weakness is the front hub bearings.
The AutoZone front hub bearings are scrap right out of the box. This thread discusses that failure, but is also getting some intelligent discussion from the principal of e-bearing: http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum2/HTML/108566.html

In this thread, I collected info from BubbaJoe about using an old school FWD rear hub with dual tapered rollers to replace the '88 front hub. This converts the bolt pattern to 5x4.75 and would allow the use of unmodified C4 Corvette rotors and C5 wheels. Once the bearing hub is figured out, the rest of the package goes together easily.
http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum2/HTML/116656.html

I have gone through both of those threads extensively and I am not really worried about future hub issues. It seems like there will be solutions out there, and if not, my friend can make me a solutions with a better hub for $$$
Example:

Of the items you've listed, the only thing I'd actually do would be the brake pads. The '87+ 2.8 blocks across GM's product line received improved oiling systems and don't suffer anything close to the failure rate that the early engines do. A high volume pump might drain the sump during extended high RPM use. The stock cooling system, stock ignition, etc. are perfectly adequate for stock power levels, if properly maintained. On a track car, this might mean pre-emptive replacement of the ignition module every season, for example.

I'd prefer to have cooling upgraded. Along with the high volume pump, pan modification to increase size would be a good possibility. I remember having some ideas about that a long time ago when I had a 2.8...
I suppose my bad track record with my previous 2.8 (multiple and various ignition failures, and a collapsed lifter after a long high speed run) has tinted my opinion of the stock Fiero's various systems being able to hold up to extreme use.

Don't know why you'd remove the A/C... it really doesn't weigh anything and makes the car so much nicer to drive to/from track days.

It doesn't work in this particular car. If it did, I would keep it. Plus having the condenser out of the way should help a bit with cooling.

I wouldn't make a T-top car a track whore. For one, it's fairly rare. If you booger it up, you've smashed a rare car. Also, the T-top conversion cut out the original overhead steel and rivetted the T-top frame in its place. This compromises chassis stiffness and strength.

It's not my first choice. I'm not a fan of T-tops, plus I'm well aware of the rarity of the weatherstripping and this car already leaks. Also, that loss of structural rigidity bugs me. The only advantage it has for me is a little more helmet space.

If you want an easy/quick engine swap, go all the way to a 3400 or non-VVT 3500. The 3500 will get you 210 HP stock while being 25# lighter than the 2.8 and having modern reliability and ignition. The iron head 3.4 isn't worth the trouble.

The engine talk was simply something I would do if I had to do it quickly. Ideally I'd like to have an ecotec with a built bottom end, ported head, and cams to run up to 7500rpms, but that's not going to happen. If I do this, a 3400/3500 of some type would be the way I would go, but probably not for 2-3 years.

[AkursedX]

-oil cooler (any ideas or examples as to how it's done)

Actually, I would do this too.

Z34 Luminas and some older Corvettes used a nifty oil/water heat exchanger that mounted to the oil filter boss on the block. The oil filter then mounted to the cooler. You'd have to plumb your heater core circuit to it, but that's not hard.

Being a factory cooler, it doesn't have huge capacity, but it's pretty reliable. A 2.8 doesn't need a huge oil cooler anyway.

I read up on this earlier today. I'm going to the yard later this week and I'll be able to get a good look at one but this seems like the way to go.

[Series8217]

IIRC the oil cooler hits the block or cradle on a 2.8, but might be made to fit with an adapter. I have a bunch of adapters sitting in a box; if you can't get it to fit let me know the measurements and I'll see what I have. I also have an aftermarket oil-to-water cooler that I used for a short time (before I got another GM one) that works great and I'd be willing to let go for cheap.

[CincinnatiFiero]

I would get some sort of rev limiter. Unless the 2.8 has one and mine doesn't work. Sometimes in autocross its more efficient use of your time to bounce off the limiter than back off the throttles or shift when the corner is like 25 feet in front of you. I've revved my 2.8 too high a few times and once had a throttle cable stick and watched the tach needle go well beyond 6000. Before I track my 2.8 again I was going to look into like a 6AL box or some sort of limiter and set it sort of low, its not like the 2.8 makes power at the redline anyways.

[The Dark Side of Will]

The '87+ 2.8 blocks across GM's product line received improved oiling systems and don't suffer anything close to the failure rate that the early engines do. A high volume pump might drain the sump during extended high RPM use. The stock cooling system, stock ignition, etc. are perfectly adequate for stock power levels, if properly maintained. On a track car, this might mean pre-emptive replacement of the ignition module every season, for example.

I'd prefer to have cooling upgraded. Along with the high volume pump, pan modification to increase size would be a good possibility. I remember having some ideas about that a long time ago when I had a 2.8...
I suppose my bad track record with my previous 2.8 (multiple and various ignition failures, and a collapsed lifter after a long high speed run) has tinted my opinion of the stock Fiero's various systems being able to hold up to extreme use.

Sounds like trying to improve the 2.8 might be a waste of your time, then... Better to put the effort into a task that will give you the results you want.

[darkhorizon]

I'm not 100% on this yet, but I might be picking up an '88 formula t-top for a very good price. If I go through with this, I'll probably keep my 3800-turbo and commit myself to a life of Fiero-dom.......

As much as I hate it... It works.... Every other platform is going to cost more and leave you looking for something.

If you wanted a turny thing, you might as well stay cheap cheap. Getting a 5 digit "track car" is fairly crazy. A cheap fiero with some tires on it should be plenty fun to toss around waterford hills. As far as a swap goes.. a f23 ecotec would be far from complicated.

[AkursedX]

Sounds like trying to improve the 2.8 might be a waste of your time, then... Better to put the effort into a task that will give you the results you want.

I think you're right. I told the guy that I want to buy his car and I'm waiting to hear back. I think what I'll do is build up my spare '88 cradle with a 3x00 and install it all at once with the upgraded suspension mods I plan on doing.

This is going probably going to be a "Will-esque" build as far as time goes, haha.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I don't agree with everything this guy's done, and I think his car overall looks like crap... but this is one way to do it.

http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/084322.html

I didn't read closely enough to see if he mentioned wheel bearing problems.

[CincinnatiFiero]

The car looks like total ass but honestly thats probably the hardest working fiero on that website. He's not just monthly autocrossing it, the dude is really going for it, I can respect that.

[AkursedX]

I don't agree with everything this guy's done, and I think his car overall looks like crap... but this is one way to do it.

http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/084322.html

I didn't read closely enough to see if he mentioned wheel bearing problems.

I've read through the thread and he's run through only a couple of sets of wheel bearings in what he estimates at almost 4-hours of track time. I think from now on, everytime I see an '88 at the junkyard, I will be pulling front wheel bearings from now on.

There's a lot of small things in that thread to pick up on that are good ideas.

[Shaun41178(2)]

He runs through a ton of engine bearings too.

if you are going to stick with iron heads, you can still use a 3400 block, and use 3.4 iron head pistons. This way though you get to use a roller cam, and a dedicated oil galley for the mains and rods unlike a 2.8 or 3.1 or 3.4 block. This combo with a factory intake has done about 180 whp with ported iron heads. Well not sure how ported but still a little ported. Aftermarket roller cams are available as well so get you over 200 at the wheels.

Will also has a custom intake for iron heads that he might sell you as well which would be good for high rpm power and for racing. inquire with him if you want more info.

[AkursedX]

He runs through a ton of engine bearings too.

if you are going to stick with iron heads, you can still use a 3400 block, and use 3.4 iron head pistons. This way though you get to use a roller cam, and a dedicated oil galley for the mains and rods unlike a 2.8 or 3.1 or 3.4 block. This combo with a factory intake has done about 180 whp with ported iron heads. Well not sure how ported but still a little ported. Aftermarket roller cams are available as well so get you over 200 at the wheels.

Will also has a custom intake for iron heads that he might sell you as well which would be good for high rpm power and for racing. inquire with him if you want more info.

Yeah, he did quite a bit of modding to the stock 2.8 bearings to get some reliability out of it. Although I don't plan on doing the type of endurance events he does.

To be honest, IF I get this car (It's a big IF right now because I've been looking at another SVO), I will drive it as is and focus my efforts into a 3400/3500 setup. I have a full '88 rear-end that will let me build what I want to build at my pace.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Darn... I was hoping to be able to sell that intake...

I'll go out on a limb and say I could build you a 300 HP iron head 3.5

I have the Falconer throttle per cylinder intake, several sets of Falconer (really BPE) heads and one more set (I think) of titanium valves.

[darkhorizon]

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/2456193467.html

[EMX5636]

Not sure if this is of interest to you.

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto/3011414555.html

Nothing of mine, just saw it this morning.

[crzyone]

Might be a pita but if you are serious about racing then I'd scrap the 2.8 all together. A done up ecotec would be a good way to reduce weight and even up the weight distribution.

Don't need a turbo or anything. I suggest a lot of seat time with low to moderate power, learn how to race and then start adding power.