amonia refigeration? /intercooling/

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:06 pm

he keeps promoting is an air to water intercooler system using old fashonied refrigeration, amonia, and copper tubing. they used to use propane to heat coils of wire filled with amonia to make a cooling system, he thinks if we wrap these coil around the exhaust manifolds, and run them to an intercooler he can make one of these old fashioned refrigeration systems. I want to see this in action, the hotter it gets the colder the amonia is supposed to get. Since headers can hit 600+ temperatures it should work nice.

is this kids dad on crack or is there a system like that which works?

Pyrthian · Post by **Pyrthian** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:20 pm

I dunno. I think there is a step missing. just heating a sealed tube of ammonia will just make hot ammonia. most A/C systems work on the principal of rapid expansion. where a liquid is evaporated. the evaporation locks the temp to its evaporation point. then the gas is again captured, compressed back to liquid, and forced to do it again.

so, I expect the heating is to force the ammonia thru the tube, under pressure, to a small orifice, where it is sprayed, like a nozzle. the mist causes the evaporation, which pulls down the temp. I dunno what the temp for ammonia to go from liquid to gas, but thats what roughly what this system would be capable of cooling to.

but, if you wanted to make a exhaust heat driven intercooler - I would suggest a sterling engine. a sterling engine runs on temp difference, and when "pushed", it creates temp difference. these are what are used for cryo.

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:48 pm

I think the kid misunderstood his dad.

The hot side of a refrigeration system is to GET RID of heat, not add it to the system. Refrigeration works by using changes in pressure to create changes i temperature. Addition of unnecessary heat just degrades the efficiency of the system.

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:50 pm

The Dark Side of Will wrote:I think the kid misunderstood his dad.

The hot side of a refrigeration system is to GET RID of heat, not add it to the system. Refrigeration works by using changes in pressure to create changes i temperature. Addition of unnecessary heat just degrades the efficiency of the system.

I swore I remembered something about them using fire to run refrigeration systems a LONG time ago - maybe it was in a movie or something..

rube · Post by **rube** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:46 pm

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev ... xt/gas.htm

dratts · Post by **dratts** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:35 pm

Yes Servel gas refrigerators and RV gas refrigerators use the absorption process where heat is introduced either with a gas burner or an electric heater. I think they use thermo syphon to avoid the use of pumps, so the height of various components in relation to each other would be a factor.

Blue Shift · Post by **Blue Shift** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:10 pm

http://www.gasrefrigerators.com/howitworks.htm

Weponhead · Post by **Weponhead** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:38 am

heh , i could ask R&D at work about it , we make ammonia charged evaporators...

p8ntman442 · Post by **p8ntman442** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:11 am

Read the above link.

Heat is generated in the absorber by the process of absorption. This heat must be dissipated into the surrounding air. Heat must also be dissipated from the condenser in order to cool the ammonia vapor sufficiently for it to liquefy. Free air circulation is therefore necessary over the absorber and condenser.

The whole unit operates by the heat applied to the boiler system and it is of paramount importance that this heat is kept within the necessary limits and is properly applied.

anyways it would work but your oerfuckingcomplicating a heat exchanger. This system still required air to pass over the coils to cool it back down after absorbing the heat. You would be better off with an air/water intercooler, and a big fan on it.

Pyrthian · Post by **Pyrthian** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:53 am

yes, air-water w/fan will be just as affective. the ammonia system barely goes below room temp.

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:43 am

seems like it would be a complicated way of regaining some energy thats lost to heat in the exhaust. but thats about it.

Pyrthian · Post by **Pyrthian** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:59 am

Kohburn wrote:seems like it would be a complicated way of regaining some energy thats lost to heat in the exhaust. but thats about it.

yup.
how's about a steam powered genetrator....
ditch the alternator, use electric water pump.....
hey, how's about a electric turbo!

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:13 am

Pyrthian wrote:
Kohburn wrote:seems like it would be a complicated way of regaining some energy thats lost to heat in the exhaust. but thats about it.
yup.
how's about a steam powered genetrator....
ditch the alternator, use electric water pump.....
hey, how's about a electric turbo!

electric boost uses more power than it makes

electric water pump works because it doesn't try to spin faster with the engien rpm

Pyrthian · Post by **Pyrthian** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:26 am

Kohburn wrote:
Pyrthian wrote:
Kohburn wrote:seems like it would be a complicated way of regaining some energy thats lost to heat in the exhaust. but thats about it.
yup.
how's about a steam powered genetrator....
ditch the alternator, use electric water pump.....
hey, how's about a electric turbo!
electric boost uses more power than it makes

electric water pump works because it doesn't try to spin faster with the engien rpm

ya ya - part of the silliness. instead of dumping the exhaust straigth to a turbo - complicate it with a generator & motor....blah blah blah....I will never understand the quest for electric turbo/supercharge, when the belt drive & exhaust drive are so simple to start with.

Shaun41178(2) · Post by **Shaun41178(2)** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:05 pm

noone has mentioned it but ammonia gas is very toxic. You get a small leak in the system and you can kiss your ass goodbye. But hey, as long as you have low intercooler temps right?

Why is this even being discussed? Its not like anyone here is actually going to do it.

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:21 pm

it was some statement made by a kid and I was curious if such a chiller system even functioned

Blue Shift · Post by **Blue Shift** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:04 am

Shaun41178(2) wrote:noone has mentioned it but ammonia gas is very toxic. You get a small leak in the system and you can kiss your ass goodbye. But hey, as long as you have low intercooler temps right?

Why is this even being discussed? Its not like anyone here is actually going to do it.

Anhydrous ammonia is interesting stuff. Farmers spray their fields with it and such. They always carry water when spraying, cuz it's so ravenously thirsty for water, it'll rip it right out of your flesh if it gets on you. Also, anybody who's fallen over choking after breathing ammonia fumes from the stuff already dissolved in water knows how bad it gets.

Weponhead · Post by **Weponhead** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:38 pm

its so deadly , we fill evaporators with huge amounts of it.... its gotta be reallllly dangerous. because we place them in areas where people could be exposed... mmm giant freezers i doubt if it was that deadly , they would allow it for use in populated areas. granted i understand it can kill.. we have "DANGER AMMONIA" signs all around R&D where they test new coils all the time.

Pyrthian · Post by **Pyrthian** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:54 pm

back in the "old days" for drafting & blueprints, the blueprint process used ammonia, and it would stink up the whole copy room. yeah, I expect it could be deadly, but from just an open air burst, no.

dratts · Post by **dratts** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:33 am

I worked at a dairy back in the fiftys that used ammonia refrigeration. You didn't need leak detection to find a leak, the smell was very strong. I don't know if they were aware of any health dangers back then. I don't think epa existed then. I may have given away my age!